2 Workers before a Settler

[sampsa]

@BornInCantaloup good comments and I agree that if you settle away from the river (which makes a lot of sense, since river sites are not very strong) two workers is the way to go. In my constrained little world I'd settle plains hill in SE, improve plains sheep and whip/chop workers (maybe a settler, too) being mainly size 1. I now understand that it might not be the best way, and that it certainly isn't the only way.

 

[Harv]

Did the Chinese shadow game move to this thread?

 

[sampsa]

Is SE back in vogue?

Yes, let's discuss SE next. Then WWE/SSE.

 

[lymond]

ps : 2nd worker is at size 2

yep..got that one..but 2 workers first is meme-able!

 

[Harv]

WWE is World Wrestling Entertainment? Is that another wonder?

 

[lymond]

Yes, WWE is the World Wrestling Economy (it funds XFL football and Reality TV)

Spoiler veracity :

World Wonder Economy

: I think this thread is totally....

Spoiler :

 

[drewisfat]

Wait, you're telling me worker-worker-worker isn't the norm?

Spoiler :

How else do you build the great wall in one turn? China gotta do Chinese things

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Next you'll tell me people actually use that slavery civic.

 

[krikav]

That looks nice drew!

 

[elmurcis]

On another Maraworld: 2x or 3x workboat opening?

 

[Fippy]

DrewShiHuang
Creative
Industrious

Unique Building: The Supertastic Wall
Unique Unit: Underpaid Worker

In early years, DrewShiHuang developed an immense dislike of wandering barbarians.
To keep those pests out, he excels in building massive stone constructs, always supported by his creative mind.
Drew believes that creating an empire should be a special occasion.

Music starts playing..

 

[Harv]

I thought India had the underpaid worker as a unique unit. They chop forests in 3 turns instead of four.

What does an axe rush look like by Gandhi?

 

[drewisfat]

Hehe spot on with my leader description Fippy

I was inspired by the recent string of hospitals China built in under a week, and barbs might as well be a virus.

 

[Anysense]

I forgot when I built a worker last time. Usually its something like this

Spoiler :

Am I too conservative?

 

[shakabrade]

I sense that the "double worker"-trend is picking up speed.

More often than not that is my opening (or at least was long time ago when I played). With two workers you quickly develop your capital to work strong tiles, then move to connect the new city and its strong tiles and then third and so on. That leads to very efficient worker turns as workers are always close to something useful. Plus two initial workers can save your game and chop some warriors while building settlers leading to more consistent win rate (you don't lose to barbs). I often expand into 5th and 6th city with 3 workers, but since those first workers were built so early, they have more worker turns so you don't really come up as underdeveloped as you should by that 1.5 workers per city rule. There are plenty of times that one worker start is better (India almost always) but if I had to chose always one opening for consistency, it'd be double worker.

 

[krikav]

Can agree with alot of that.
In games where I go for pyramids, I tend to build _alot_ of workers to get them built quick. (Don't like the idea of a lengthy pyramids-build, as the first few hammers get locked in such a long time). So I usually have workerturn-surplus both just before the choppingspree and after the build, and it almost always result in a comfortable and efficient game.

 

[sampsa]

However, a fact is that a connected 2nd city gains a lot more raw yield than growing capital does (well, unless capital has say 4 excellent tiles, like double pigs + double gold). Recent NC Mao is a good example.

 

[Fippy]

Shakabrade makes an important point about "worker snowballing", if we have another one sooner we might need less "later",
which indirectly also creates hammers that can be compared to what an earlier 2nd city gives.

So i still agree with you Sampsa that i build a settler first more often, but i probably have to disagree with 2nd cities automatically gaining more raw yield (early 2nd worker can count as 60h saved soon).
But if settler whipping (Mao example) creates that worker not much later, we are back to settler first winning.

 

[sampsa]

OK. So we are back to chopping infinite forests I suppose. If there is snowballing from earlier worker there is also snowballing from earlier 2nd city. In the Mao game in question (edit: realized we talk about different Mao games , this comment is in regards to NC Mao), settling 2nd city to work unimproved floodplain earns 322 per turn, which is not easy to beat. Of course, we don't always have a juicy 2nd spot available.

but i probably have to disagree with 2nd cities automatically gaining more raw yield (early 2nd worker can count as 60h saved soon).

I'm a bit tired now, but I think the part in parenthesis has a logical flaw. If early 2nd worker counts as 60h saved soon, then early 2nd city must count as 100h saved soon.

 

[shakabrade]

However, a fact is that a connected 2nd city gains a lot more raw yield than growing capital does (well, unless capital has say 4 excellent tiles, like double pigs + double gold). Recent NC Mao is a good example.

Almost any whippable capital (2 land food sources, maybe some early happiness near) does not need to fear double worker opening to be crippling. Yes, yield-wise there can be some better maths, but if we put value on the increase in flexibility and generally better efficiency with earlier workers, earlier roads, etc., it becomes very hard to evaluate how it translates into a win, but it is easy to see how extra safety due to ability to burst produce with chops can save the game from barbs.

I looked at the NC game, and due to very slow starting capital, I'd also go for settler before 2nd worker, especially because it is not many worker turns to connect it.

What I like in some general case. Faster capital with 6 tiles, 5 can work too will produce both the workers and settlers faster than NC Mao map. You set the capital for whipping with 2 workers, whip the settler and soon hit the happy cap but you don't care as your 2nd or 3rd city will share 6 tile and whip their own stuff. You start whipping and using that unhappiness timer sooner, which is also a resource of its own, especially if no early happiness is around. This is often how my starts looked like. Ok food, bad happiness (as I selectively declined gold/gems starts).

The main message, from my view of mediocre microer having played dominantly on partially handicapped Standard/Medium_sea_level/Fractal Deity, is that double worker is sometimes good on Standard/Medium_sea_level/Fractal Deity. So, the settings normalized answer is - depends.

 

[sampsa]

Almost any whippable capital (2 land food sources, maybe some early happiness near) does not need to fear double worker opening to be crippling.

Oh absolutely not, I'm simply interested on if it is better than the alternatives.

Yes, yield-wise there can be some better maths, but if we put value on the increase in flexibility and generally better efficiency with earlier workers, earlier roads, etc., it becomes very hard to evaluate how it translates into a win, but it is easy to see how extra safety due to ability to burst produce with chops can save the game from barbs.

I understand. The timing of settling the 2nd city is roughly at the same time when barbs start to enter our borders, which is indeed something you need to take care of.

What I like in some general case. Faster capital with 6 tiles, 5 can work too will produce both the workers and settlers faster than NC Mao map. You set the capital for whipping with 2 workers, whip the settler and soon hit the happy cap but you don't care as your 2nd or 3rd city will share 6 tile and whip their own stuff. You start whipping and using that unhappiness timer sooner, which is also a resource of its own, especially if no early happiness is around.

Agreed.