jonatas
tropicalista
But who should it have been then? Kobe? or Lebron? Who would you have voted? I would have voted Lebron. Nash is an unusual MVP, but people were talking about Chauncey Billups too, which would have been even stranger IMO.
2006 NBA Playoffs
- Thread starter Azale
- Start date
Either Kobe or Lebron would have been a much better choice. Both were just as, if not more, valuable to their teams as Nash, and both are much better players.
Though I can't look at the Kobe/Lebron choice objectively as I am from the cleveland area.
Though I can't look at the Kobe/Lebron choice objectively as I am from the cleveland area.
Maybe YOU should start thinking of Nash as an all-time great pointguard....he is obviously the best right now, he transforms an entire team of scrubs (Diaw, House, Barbosa? They were NOTHING before.) into the second seed in the Western Conference.
Its not a sad day, its a great day. Finally the real MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS are being recognized. Not just the best scorers or most popular.
@kingjoshi, I think someone already covered me on this...Arenas averaged about 30 points per game. Caron Butler is a...nice...Lamar Odom...type...player. Im not saying he is Lamar Odom, but he is the equivalent of it to me. Jamison is waaay up and down. Arenas is their only consistency and he is the reason they went on their run and made the playoffs.
Its not a sad day, its a great day. Finally the real MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS are being recognized. Not just the best scorers or most popular.
@kingjoshi, I think someone already covered me on this...Arenas averaged about 30 points per game. Caron Butler is a...nice...Lamar Odom...type...player. Im not saying he is Lamar Odom, but he is the equivalent of it to me. Jamison is waaay up and down. Arenas is their only consistency and he is the reason they went on their run and made the playoffs.
Umm, Barbosa isn't a scrub. He is probably the best backup point guard in the NBA right now. That is another key, BACKUP POINT GUARD, that means they aren't on the floor together very often! So Barbosa's numbers have very little to do with Nash. Second, Diaw isn't exactly a scrub either. He's had 3 triple-doubles since January for the Suns, but I'm sure Nash is the reason for this
And Eddie House, are you serious? The guy put up better averages this season than any other because he got more playing time (that and he actually managed to stay healthy this year, but i'm sure that was Nash too!).
But let's not forget, he does have one of the best players in the league playing with him in Shawn Marion. But of course, he had nothing too do with the Suns success! If Kobe or Lebron had a player of Marion's caliber on their teams both would have won more than 54 games.
Don't get me wrong, Nash is a good player, but he doesn't belong among the Hallowed ranks of those who have won two MVPs.
And Eddie House, are you serious? The guy put up better averages this season than any other because he got more playing time (that and he actually managed to stay healthy this year, but i'm sure that was Nash too!). But let's not forget, he does have one of the best players in the league playing with him in Shawn Marion. But of course, he had nothing too do with the Suns success! If Kobe or Lebron had a player of Marion's caliber on their teams both would have won more than 54 games.
Don't get me wrong, Nash is a good player, but he doesn't belong among the Hallowed ranks of those who have won two MVPs.
jonatas
tropicalista
MattBrown said:
You know Kobe'd be jacking those shots anyway
I think I would have gone with Lebron, but I have no problem with Nash winning it. I think it was Phil Jackson that said something like, "Phoenix doesn't run plays, they just let Nash create".Should be interesting to see if Kobe gets pissed and tries to go for 50 tonight though
I'm definitely watching that game.
Darkness
Shadow creature
RedFusion said:Umm, Barbosa isn't a scrub. He is probably the best backup point guard in the NBA right now. That is another key, BACKUP POINT GUARD, that means they aren't on the floor together very often! So Barbosa's numbers have very little to do with Nash. Second, Diaw isn't exactly a scrub either. He's had 3 triple-doubles since January for the Suns, but I'm sure Nash is the reason for this
But let's not forget, he does have one of the best players in the league playing with him in Shawn Marion. But of course, he had nothing too do with the Suns success! If Kobe or Lebron had a player of Marion's caliber on their teams both would have won more than 54 games.
Don't get me wrong, Nash is a good player, but he doesn't belong among the Hallowed ranks of those who have won two MVPs.
Actually, I am 100% with Azale. I think it's great that the MVP goes to Nash. Kobe and LeBron may be more popular and they may score more, but Nash is what makes the Suns into the no2 seed in the west. (especially if one notes the Suns record with Nash out of the line-up (2-6 over the last two years IIRC) LeBron is what makes the Cavs into the number three seed in the east, but they won less games than the Suns. Kobe's the guy who got the Lakers the 7th seed in the West.
Nash deserves this. Period.
BTW: Nash is definately one of the main reasons that Diaw is now noticed as a good player.
Diaw's statlines for the last three years:
Year Team MPG FG% 3P% FT% Off Def Tot APG SPG BPG TO A/TO PF PPG
2003-04 ATL 25.2 .447 .231 .602 1.5 3.0 4.5 2.4 0.8 0.5 1.7 1.4 191 4.5
2004-05 ATL 18.2 .422 .180 .740 0.8 1.8 2.6 2.3 0.6 0.3 1.3 1.7 123 4.8
2005-06 PHO 35.5 .526 .267 .731 2.0 4.9 6.9 6.2 0.7 1.0 2.3 2.7 260 13.3
Seems to me that playing in Phoenix sure helped him save his career.
Darkness said:
Any player who goes from playing 20 minutes a game and 300 shot attempts a season to over 35 MPG and over 850 shots per season is going to see huge increases in his numbers!!! Just look at Jermaine O'Neal, the guy went from 200 shot attempts, 12.3 MPG, and 3.9 PPG in the 99-00 season with the Portland Trail Blazers to 868 Shot attempts, 32.6 MPG, and 12.9 PPG the next season with the Pacers, then he went to 1133 FGA, 37.6 MPG, and 19.0 PPG. Why the jumps in statistics, well he became a starter in Indiana, just like Diaw became one in Phoenix.
Barbosa sucked last year and his rookie year. Same for Diaw, same for Eddie House. Barbosa is not forced into being the starting point guard becuase he is behind Nash and can learn from him, playing off the bench.
You are not going to convince me that Richardson, Johnson, Stoudamire, Diaw, House, Tim Thomas, Barbosa ALL playing up to potential when is some STRANGE coincidence that has NOTHING to do with Steve Nash. Its amazing, but the man elevates his team unlike any point guard in this league.
How good did Quentin Richardson do this year? Joe Johnson? Didnt they have plenty of minutes in their new Nash-less teams?
Is it any coincidence that when Nash was essentially the only key addition two years ago to a non-playoff Suns team...they had the most wins in the league the next year, and top 5 the year after that. If he wanted to be a scorer he could do that too, I seem to recall several 40+ games in a certain Western Conference Finals against the San Antonio Spurs.
You are not going to convince me that Richardson, Johnson, Stoudamire, Diaw, House, Tim Thomas, Barbosa ALL playing up to potential when is some STRANGE coincidence that has NOTHING to do with Steve Nash. Its amazing, but the man elevates his team unlike any point guard in this league.
How good did Quentin Richardson do this year? Joe Johnson? Didnt they have plenty of minutes in their new Nash-less teams?
Is it any coincidence that when Nash was essentially the only key addition two years ago to a non-playoff Suns team...they had the most wins in the league the next year, and top 5 the year after that. If he wanted to be a scorer he could do that too, I seem to recall several 40+ games in a certain Western Conference Finals against the San Antonio Spurs.
Darkness
Shadow creature
RedFusion said:
Are you even reading the same statlines as we are?
Diaw got almost twice as many minutes per game this season as opposed to last season.
He has almost tripled his apg, rpg, bpg and ppg, and he's gone from being a 42% shooter to a 52% shooter.
Seems like a big improvement to me. And definately not just due to the increase in minutes.
Nash makes his teammates better players. Period.
Darkness said:
And Jermaine O'Neal made comparable jumps. But please tell me, how in the world does Nash help Diaw triple his blocked shots?? Or assists for that matter? As far as improving his shooting percentage, he probably worked on his shot during the offseason!! But I'm really interested to hear how you explain Nash being the reason he shot 10% better.
Also, what about the Coaching, why not credit D'Antoni? So why not credit the coaching system.
It's also not like this is the first place Nash has been. He certainly didn't make his teammates 3x as good in Dallas. How do you reconcile this?
Azale said:
Maybe Barbosa was learning from the coach? Or maybe he actually trained in the offseason in order to get better! I know, players working to make themselves better, it's a crazy idea!
Now, Tim Thomas wasn't exactly playing up too his potential, he only averaged 11 PPG with the Suns (he's beaten that 7 times in his career). Joe Johnson I'll address later. Eddie House did not have a career high in any category. Amare Stoudemire?? You have got to be kidding me!! The kids a beast, with or without Nash (see the 20PPG he put up before Nash got there). That's about as crazy as claiming Nash is responsible for Marions production.
Joe Johnson had a great year! He went from 17 PPG in Pheonix to over 20 PPG in Atlanta, he also about doubled his assists from last year from 3.5 to 6.5!!! His rebounds dropped slightly from last year to this, but he still maintained his career average at 4.1.
Quentin Richardson is an interesting case though, he had his minutes cut in half in New York, and that obviously caused his PPG to suffer as a result. But I would also take into consideration another aspect, the fact that his older brother was shot and killed in december.
Also, if Nash was such a critical addition to his team, why did the Mavericks show any signs of missing him?? Heck they won over 60 games this year! If he was so valuable, why did their statistics suffer as a result of losing him?? You say that he elevates his team unlike any other in the league, then why, please tell me, does this not apply to his former team???
I will posit you this also, what if it was more the cancer that Stephon Marbury was that hindered the suns before Nash got there. We've seen how bad the Knicks have been with him. Heck, the Nets shot up once they traded him to the Suns for Jason Kidd! Marbury has only been on 1 team his entire career that was above .500 (his second season with the Garnett and the T'wolves). He's dragged his team down everywhere he's been.
Your avoiding giving any credit to Nash at all....Stoudamire was a good player without Nash, with Nash he become MVP quality.
btw, I do believe the Mavs made the Western Conference Finals with Nash. They ran one of the highest scoring teams with Nash. I dont see your point...they have somewhat changed their style, they have one of the top defenses in the NBA now, it just shows that they make good personell decisions and have good coaching.
btw, I do believe the Mavs made the Western Conference Finals with Nash. They ran one of the highest scoring teams with Nash. I dont see your point...they have somewhat changed their style, they have one of the top defenses in the NBA now, it just shows that they make good personell decisions and have good coaching.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
My one and only comment on the Nash "controversy"
How does Nash win back-to-back MVPs but Jason Kidd never wins?
How does Nash win back-to-back MVPs but Jason Kidd never wins?
I think Nash has averaged higher in statistical categories, plus people value what he has done vs. Western Conference competition more than what Kidd did vs Eastern Conference (especially when the Nets went to those 2 straight finals....the East was cruddy then)
Azale said:
Oh I am not avoiding giving Nash his due, He's a great PG. But he's only on the level of a Jason Kidd. But you are crazy if you think that Stoudemire was only a "good" player without Nash. The kid, in his second year out of High School but up over 20 PPG!!!! Kevin Garnett didn't even do that. So that is just a bunch of bull and you know it!
The Mavs did go to the Finals with Nash, but they are also the second best team in the Western Conference this year (and if not for the stupid playoff format in the NBA wouldn't be meeting the Spurs in the second round).
I'll say it again, is Nash a good point guard? Yes, one of the best in the league right now. Is he worthy of being among the all-time elite who've received two MVPs. Absolutely not. Not when players like Shaq and Garnett have never done that and even more so when players of equal caliber such as Kidd have never won one.
kingjoshi
King
Credit to go all around. D'Antoni deserves a lot of credit for the system and what the players produce. But he knows that Nash is the catalyst that makes the system work.
Nash has lead the highest scoring offense for the last 5 years. He's one of the top shooters in the game. He sets up the offense like few can. People are just appreciating the offense (and winning) he's responsible for.
LeBron and Kobe are equally worthy candidates. So it Nowitski.
Just because Nash didn't have to shoulder that load in Dallas (Dirk and Finley there!) it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the MVP this year.
Duncan was an MVP not just for his production on the court (and winning). His demeanor (with Pop) sets the tone for San Antonio. As the leader of the team, he sets what players can and cannot get away with. He sets teh environment in which other players on the team must follow.
In his own way, Nash has set up the offense (along with D'Antoni) in Phoenix. His self-less play, his ability to find open shooters, his ability to help his team win.
Kobe has elevated his leadership this year and definitely deserves recognition. And LeBron has lived up to the hype time and again, and that's incredibly remarkable due to how high the bar was.
But that doesn't mean Nash isn't worthy.
EDIT: Marion deserves a lot of credit too. He rarely gets the offense run for him, but doesn't whine about it and plays hard every night.
Nash has lead the highest scoring offense for the last 5 years. He's one of the top shooters in the game. He sets up the offense like few can. People are just appreciating the offense (and winning) he's responsible for.
LeBron and Kobe are equally worthy candidates. So it Nowitski.
Just because Nash didn't have to shoulder that load in Dallas (Dirk and Finley there!) it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the MVP this year.
Duncan was an MVP not just for his production on the court (and winning). His demeanor (with Pop) sets the tone for San Antonio. As the leader of the team, he sets what players can and cannot get away with. He sets teh environment in which other players on the team must follow.
In his own way, Nash has set up the offense (along with D'Antoni) in Phoenix. His self-less play, his ability to find open shooters, his ability to help his team win.
Kobe has elevated his leadership this year and definitely deserves recognition. And LeBron has lived up to the hype time and again, and that's incredibly remarkable due to how high the bar was.
But that doesn't mean Nash isn't worthy.
EDIT: Marion deserves a lot of credit too. He rarely gets the offense run for him, but doesn't whine about it and plays hard every night.
kingjoshi
King
jonatas said:
Yes, statistically, he's a great player. Top 15 this year. But he didn't carry the team on his shoulders. Jamison and Bulter deserve a lot of credit too (though Arenas the most).
I mean, Jordan is one of the best players ever, but it's not as though he didn't have a great coach and star sidekick!
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
OMG DID YOU SEE THAT?!?! (re: Sac vs SA)
That was AMAZING. It was better than LeBron's game winner earlier tonight.
WOW
