2019 NFL Regular Season Thread

[Sommerswerd]

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1204419234077560832?s=19

Ha just as Pat's fans starting winning the media war on their latest spying adventures this breaks. The bangles too it's just perfect.

I was going to post something political about this, but rather than derail I will put it in the Clown Car Thread instead

 

[Timsup2nothin]

LOL...because nothing says "do your job" like eight minutes of footage of the spectacularly qualified coaches on the Bengals sideline.

I was going to post something political about this, but rather than derail I will put it in the Clown Car Thread instead

It is probably best to isolate that aspect of the conversation away from our football thread. However, the aspect of the conversation that goes; Cheatriots caught, Cheatriots caught again, Cheatriots caught and punished, Cheatriots caught and punished again, Cheatriots apparently just don't care about punishment and are caught again....that belongs here. Do you think punishment severe enough to get their attention should be applied? Just how severe do you think that punishment needs to be? Not in terms of "the punishment fits the crime," but in terms of "the punishment finally deters the continuation of criminal lifestyle." It is pretty clear that as an organization the Cheatriots rank winning championships above everything, and following the rules somewhere in the same range as cleaning the gum off the bottom of seats in the stadium...ie, something you only do when the accumulation is so heavy that someone starts complaining.

I'm thinking that comes from the very top. Thirty-one owners understand that the salary cap and other competition rules not only line their pockets, they keep the NFL from turning into a "let's try to televise a bunch of games no one cares about before the annual showdown between the Lakers and Celtics" situation. They "protect the shield" like it is the endless cash cow and source of entertainment that we all know that it is, but Bob Kraft clearly couldn't care less. Personally, if I were an NFL owner I would be at owners meetings saying "either you stop the cheating and join the rest of us in a thirty-two team league, or the other thirty-one of us revoke your franchise and award it to someone who will."

 

[Sommerswerd]

LOL...because nothing says "do your job" like eight minutes of footage of the spectacularly qualified coaches on the Bengals sideline.

It is probably best to isolate that aspect of the conversation away from our football thread. However, the aspect of the conversation that goes; Cheatriots caught, Cheatriots caught again, Cheatriots caught and punished, Cheatriots caught and punished again, Cheatriots apparently just don't care about punishment and are caught again....that belongs here. Do you think punishment severe enough to get their attention should be applied? Just how severe do you think that punishment needs to be? Not in terms of "the punishment fits the crime," but in terms of "the punishment finally deters the continuation of criminal lifestyle." It is pretty clear that as an organization the Cheatriots rank winning championships above everything, and following the rules somewhere in the same range as cleaning the gum off the bottom of seats in the stadium...ie, something you only do when the accumulation is so heavy that someone starts complaining.

I'm thinking that comes from the very top. Thirty-one owners understand that the salary cap and other competition rules not only line their pockets, they keep the NFL from turning into a "let's try to televise a bunch of games no one cares about before the annual showdown between the Lakers and Celtics" situation. They "protect the shield" like it is the endless cash cow and source of entertainment that we all know that it is, but Bob Kraft clearly couldn't care less. Personally, if I were an NFL owner I would be at owners meetings saying "either you stop the cheating and join the rest of us in a thirty-two team league, or the other thirty-one of us revoke your franchise and award it to someone who will."

I agree that the only person who could be punished who matters is Kraft. How they would punish Kraft... I'm not sure. I would guess that there is some clearly spelled out procedure for the owners sanctioning another owner and since the owners themselves would have had to approve it, I'm sure the process is as toothless and owner-friendly as possible.

I see all the howling about disqualifying them from the playoffs and forfeiting the Bengals game and so on but I'm also a little reluctant to punish all the non-offending players and the ticket-holding fans for the offenses of management. Ultimately it is afterall a show, and the show must go on. I'm also skeptical that the Pats are the only ones doing this kind of thing. They almost certainly do it the most, but it can't just be them doing it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I agree that the only person who could be punished who matters is Kraft. How they would punish Kraft... I'm not sure. I would guess that there is some clearly spelled out procedure for the owners sanctioning another owner and since the owners themselves would have had to approve it, I'm sure the process is as toothless and owner-friendly as possible.

I see all the howling about disqualifying them from the playoffs and forfeiting the Bengals game and so on but I'm also a little reluctant to punish all the non-offending players and the ticket-holding fans for the offenses of management. Ultimately it is afterall a show, and the show must go on. I'm also skeptical that the Pats are the only ones doing this kind of thing. They almost certainly do it the most, but it can't just be them doing it.

So how is it that they are the ones getting caught time after time after time after time?

I think you are misjudging ownership. I referenced the "glory days" of the Lakers and Celtics for a reason...those were about as far from glory days as it was possible to get for the NBA. Outside the Lakers and Celtics there was not a franchise in the NBA that could sell out their arena. There was ZERO interest from any network in giving the league a TV contract that covered anything but "well, we will air the playoffs so that we get to air the championship, but we aren't paying much because if by chance the championship isn't Lakers/Celtics no one will be watching that either."

What you are missing is that devouring Bob Kraft IS the owner friendly response to this situation. Thirty-one owners seem to be extremely aware of just how they have buttered their bread, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them sprout into a veritable pack of werewolves to hold onto that bread. So expecting them to be toothless seems like an error.

 

[Sommerswerd]

So how is it that they are the ones getting caught time after time after time after time? I think you are misjudging ownership. I referenced the "glory days" of the Lakers and Celtics for a reason...those were about as far from glory days as it was possible to get for the NBA. Outside the Lakers and Celtics there was not a franchise in the NBA that could sell out their arena. There was ZERO interest from any network in giving the league a TV contract that covered anything but "well, we will air the playoffs so that we get to air the championship, but we aren't paying much because if by chance the championship isn't Lakers/Celtics no one will be watching that either."

What you are missing is that devouring Bob Kraft IS the owner friendly response to this situation. Thirty-one owners seem to be extremely aware of just how they have buttered their bread, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them sprout into a veritable pack of werewolves to hold onto that bread. So expecting them to be toothless seems like an error.

They aren't the only ones who get caught. Remember the Saints got caught and sanctioned for "bountygate"? But the Pats keep getting caught because they do it the "best", as in they are the most successful team over the past two decades so they have benefitted the most from it and thus they get the most scrutiny. The Broncos are actually the team that has had the most suspensions for PED over the past decade, but you never hear about it because the Pats are the ones everyone likes to focus on.

As far as me referring to the toothlessness against Kraft... my point is that the NFL owners would be covering their own asses when they crafted the rules and making sure they were as protected as possible (like how Congress does). So I would expect that there are a bunch of loopholes in place to protect him from being run out of the league by the other owners.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They aren't the only ones who get caught. Remember the Saints got caught and sanctioned for "bountygate"? But the Pats keep getting caught because they do it the "best", as in they are the most successful team over the past two decades so they have benefitted the most from it and thus they get the most scrutiny. The Broncos are actually the team that has had the most suspensions for PED over the past decade, but you never hear about it because the Pats are the ones everyone likes to focus on.

As far as me referring to the toothlessness against Kraft... my point is that the NFL owners would be covering their own asses when they crafted the rules and making sure they were as protected as possible (like how Congress does). So I would expect that there are a bunch of loopholes in place to protect him from being run out of the league by the other owners.

PEDs are a player thing, not a sign of institutional cheating by a team. I will concede that the Saints got caught cheating...once*...in the same period of time that the Cheatriots have been caught....five times? Six now? I lose count. The Broncos also did get caught cheating...during a brief period when they had a coordinator from New England as their head coach. It seems abundantly clear that the Cheatriots and Bob Kraft have institutionalized cheating.

I would question whether the loopholes protecting owners aren't designed to be sealed up in the event of conduct detrimental to the league. Violations of the "keep the league competitive and the interest healthy so we can milk the networks and make billions" policy would certainly qualify.


*It should also be noted that the incident in question may very well have been an individual action by a coach, not an indication of institutional corruption.

 

[Sommerswerd]

PEDs are a player thing, not a sign of institutional cheating by a team.

The Russian Olympic team would greatly appreciate your advocacy before the IOC.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The Russian Olympic team would greatly appreciate your advocacy before the IOC.

I should have prefaced with "In the NFL..." and closed with "...by all indications." In all the bazillions of PED cases I have never heard one where the team was involved in supplying them or was caught trying to game the testing system. Speaking of which, it is interesting just how few PED cases come up against the Cheatriots. That may very well be the one place where PED cheating IS part of the institutional culture.

 

[KMRblue1027]

I agree with Tim here that the Pat's have actual institutional issues that need to be addressed by the owners but didn't the Cleveland Indians as a get busted as a whole during the fallout of the steroid era for supplying players directly?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I agree with Tim here that the Pat's have actual institutional issues that need to be addressed by the owners but didn't the Cleveland Indians as a get busted as a whole during the fallout of the steroid era for supplying players directly?

Wouldn't surprise me. Baseball was waaaaaay behind on the PED issue.

 

[caketastydelish]

Something (sort of) random here that I want to talk about is I hear a lot "Belichick's disciples always make bad head coaches" and I think that's not necessarily true. For clarity, I haven' heard it that often at CFC but I've heard at a lot of other places not the least of which are ESPN analyst, Colin Cowherd types, etc.

Yes there have been some duds but Bill O'Brien has been at least decent (just as a coach not as a general manager), the Titans have been in a better shape ever since they hired an ex-Patriots player (and with Tannehill as their starter they are REALLY looking good now), and the Dolphins, a team completely lacking talent, have clearly made improvements as it's showing that they are actually winning games now near the end of the season.

And as far "they're good because they learned the Cheatriot ways", that's hard to believe because while not 100% of his disciples were duds when they got head coaching jobs, plenty of them were.

edit: That being said, based on what I've seen, Belichick's disciples tend to have a strong win/loss record against the Pats even when their team clearly isn't as good (think the Lions and the Titans last year, for example), and me think while these new head coaches don't bring the cheatriot ways with them, they are aware of what they are so they know how to catch them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Something (sort of) random here that I want to talk about is I hear a lot "Belichick's disciples always make bad head coaches" and I think that's not necessarily true. For clarity, I haven' heard it that often at CFC but I've heard at a lot of other places not the least of which are ESPN analyst, Colin Cowherd types, etc.

Yes there have been some duds but Bill O'Brien has been at least decent (just as a coach not as a general manager), the Titans have been in a better shape ever since they hired an ex-Patriots player (and with Tannehill as their starter they are REALLY looking good now), and the Dolphins, a team completely lacking talent, have clearly made improvements as it's showing that they are actually winning games now near the end of the season.

And as far "they're good because they learned the Cheatriot ways", that's hard to believe because while not 100% of his disciples were duds when they got head coaching jobs, plenty of them were.

edit: That being said, based on what I've seen, Belichick's disciples tend to have a strong win/loss record against the Pats even when their team clearly isn't as good (think the Lions and the Titans last year, for example), and me think while these new head coaches don't bring the cheatriot ways with them, they are aware of what they are so they know how to catch them.

I've said that before about ex-Cheatriots force a level playing field.

I also think that it is a mistake to expect a coach out of New England to be able to bring "the Cheatriot way" with them, because I think that has to work down from the very top. If the owner isn't a cheat a head coach can't take the risk of trying to make them one.

 

[caketastydelish]

I look forward to the Dolphins being good. Flores has made them get to the point near the end season where playing his team is a non-joke despite the complete lack of talent on the roster.

They have a lot of draft capital AND salary cap space moving forward, so the potential absolutely there.

This could be wishful thinking from someone who the Patriots almost as much as you do (Dolphins being good is bad for the Pats as they’re divisional rivals).

OTOH, Flores almost COMPLETELY shut down the opposing teams offense in the Super Bowl (yes he was calling the plays) whereas Patricia could not even remotely do that the year prior.

 

[caketastydelish]

Saints lose two key pieces to their defensive line. With this, I no longer think they’re the team to beat. As a Seahawks fan, now I’m much less scared of them if we face them in the playoffs.

 

[Serutan]

I referenced the "glory days" of the Lakers and Celtics for a reason...those were about as far from glory days as it was possible to get for the NBA. Outside the Lakers and Celtics there was not a franchise in the NBA that could sell out their arena. There was ZERO interest from any network in giving the league a TV contract that covered anything but "well, we will air the playoffs so that we get to air the championship, but we aren't paying much because if by chance the championship isn't Lakers/Celtics no one will be watching that either."

It was definitely that way in the first half of the 80s. But Magic/Bird did have a trickle down effect and once Jordan showed up
the NBA ceased to be the near irrelevance it was in the late 70s. It's true it was not nearly as strong as it is now but its arrow was definitely pointing up.

IMO MLB is a much better example of your point, as the lack of a salary cap creates a very well defined set of 'haves' and 'have nots'.

 

[Serutan]

And from what I have seen in the cheating dept. the Pats may have to give way to the Houston Astros.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It was definitely that way in the first half of the 80s. But Magic/Bird did have a trickle down effect and once Jordan showed up
the NBA ceased to be the near irrelevance it was in the late 70s. It's true it was not nearly as strong as it is now but its arrow was definitely pointing up.

IMO MLB is a much better example of your point, as the lack of a salary cap creates a very well defined set of 'haves' and 'have nots'.

Yeah, but MLB still has major TV contracts. I personally don't see how, but they do. The NBA, IIRC, did not have any national TV contracts back then.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It was definitely that way in the first half of the 80s. But Magic/Bird did have a trickle down effect and once Jordan showed up
the NBA ceased to be the near irrelevance it was in the late 70s. It's true it was not nearly as strong as it is now but its arrow was definitely pointing up.

Yeah, but MLB still has major TV contracts. I personally don't see how, but they do. The NBA, IIRC, did not have any national TV contracts back then.

What about the idea that the Magic/Bird rivalry was what brought national attention back to the NBA, which in turn set the stage for the Jordan phenomenon to be the "Air" apparent to their legacy?

As an aside... Despite the dominance of the Lakers, Celtics and then Bulls, I remember there being some real legends spread across several teams in that era.

Anyway the relevance to the discussion in terms of the NFL is that if there was a cheating scandal on the Lakers or Celtics, it would have gotten way more attention than if it was on the Nuggets or Bullets. The Patriots success brings more
scrutiny and harsher criticism, but during their dominance the NFL has seen it profits keep going up. So again, I don't know if I can buy the notion that dynasties are bad for ratings/profits. Doesn't the league have some sort of profit sharing arrangement anyway?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Saints lose two key pieces to their defensive line. With this, I no longer think they’re the team to beat. As a Seahawks fan, now I’m much less scared of them if we face them in the playoffs.

Unless Seattle takes the division from SF and gets a bye week at home, they're going to have to settle for a bye week at Philadelphia or Dallas. But true, they could encounter the Saints after that.

 

[caketastydelish]

I’m even less scared of the Eagles and Cowboys than I am the Saints.