2020 US Election (Part One)

[Lexicus]

Oh my definition isn't (solely) about the money either. But my point is that Obama and Hillary aren't elites, the people they approach on bended knee for fundraising checks are elites.

And even if we define Hillary and Obama as elites, they haven't been materially hurt by Trump at all.

 

[Berzerker]

Did the elites want a trade war? They spent the last few decades investing in other countries. How do the elites feel about cheap immigrant labor and Trump's wall? I suspect when Trump voters say they wanted to stick it in the eye of the elite they dont mean all capitalists, just the ones importing goods into the country along with the political and cultural establishment they fund.

She lost the election and Obama's legacy is being dismantled.

 

[Lexicus]

Trump's wall is a visible symbol of the regime of legal inequality that keeps immigrant labor cheap. I imagine the elites love it not least because they know it won't actually do anything except signal that the country is uninterested in defending the rights and safety of immigrants.

 

[rah]

I think the elites realize that Trump can't just outright say that his real goal is to help the elites and must often lie to the masses to retain support.
The Tax cuts was quite the gift. I mean even I cleaned up on them, and I'm no where near an elite, so I can just imagine how big of a gift it was to them.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump's wall is a visible symbol of the regime of legal inequality that keeps immigrant labor cheap. I imagine the elites love it not least because they know it won't actually do anything except signal that the country is uninterested in defending the rights and safety of immigrants.

But the wall would at least in the minds of many Trump voters block some of that cheap immigrant labor thereby increasing wages for Americans. Its a symbol that sticks it in the eye of businesses that left the country to build abroad (like Mexico) and the businesses here that employ illegal immigrants.

 

[Lexicus]

But the wall would at least in the minds of many Trump voters block some of that cheap immigrant labor thereby increasing wages for Americans. Its a symbol that sticks it in the eye of businesses that left the country to build abroad (like Mexico) and the businesses here that employ illegal immigrants.

Well those supporters are dumb as hell and totally wrong.

 

[Tristan_C]

I said it back before your fist election and by this time I'll say it again: the only candidate I see running against him with any chance to beat him is Sanders. There are a few other good people (insofar as they can bee good in this role of candidate) but they won't beat him.

Howard Schultz could possibly have been a hard counter to Trump had he been accommodated. None of the current candidates stand a ghost's chance in hell. It's not too late for someone like Schultz to come in, though. There exists a placeholder spot for a regular Democrat, a non-freak, a Bill Clinton. It could be any mainstream-seeming person in there. Buttgeg is making a bid for the spot, but his name's Buttgeg.

Biden held the spot. Since all the cute photos his numbers diffused into a uniform boost for all the other candidates, but the spot remains available.

Why isn't the response to this to appeal to people politically? There is a way to keep districts from flipping blue - you could win more votes in those districts.

While I've already answered you on this, the way you put it here calls to attention the fact that "flipping blue" means that such a district was already red. The Republicans had already won more votes in those districts, and from legal citizens. So overall, just because the Democrats can't appeal to people politically and have to import non-citizens to flip districts, does not oblige Republicans to repay wrong with wrong. If the Democrats want to be the global marxism self-annihilation party, this does not oblige Republicans to talk the same language and offer moderate self-annihilation.

 

[Lexicus]

If the Democrats want to be the global marxism self-annihilation party,

It always bubbles to the surface one way or another.

 

[Berzerker]

Well those supporters are dumb as hell and totally wrong.

Wrong about what?

 

[El_Machinae]

We have to remember that there are more than two parties now, but that the parties coalesce into two during the actual voting

The Centrist Republican and the Centrist Democrat are noticeably different from the alt right Republican and the progressive Democrat.

The Venn diagrams of all four intersect quite a bit. It's a mistake to insist on a binary description. It's very hard to figure out the difference between Republicans who were voting for Trump and who were voting against Hillary, for example

I noticed that the idea of millions of illegal voters is continuing to percolate. It's great, because it completely delegitimizes the next election. Makes it much easier for the fascist spiral to accelerate

 

[Berzerker]

My God MSNBC is complaining about people who got smaller refunds because their with holding decreased. How dare you make me wait less time to get my money!

 

[rah]

While dumb as heck, It is kind of a cheap trick to not have mentioned this would happen to people back when they passed that piece of drek.
They instead concentrated on the fact people were getting more money. Really dishonest of them IMO.

 

[Berzerker]

if they called that a tax cut I'd agree

 

[rah]

The did call it a biggy tax cut. The dumpster took personal credit for it. What did I miss?

 

[metalhead]

While I've already answered you on this, the way you put it here calls to attention the fact that "flipping blue" means that such a district was already red. The Republicans had already won more votes in those districts, and from legal citizens.

So they own the district forever more because they historically won elections there?

Not every district flips due to an influx of voters of color. I still don't understand what prevents Republicans from holding onto districts, regardless of how voting demographics change, by broadening their appeal to include more people.

 

[mitsho]

Did the elites want a trade war? They spent the last few decades investing in other countries. How do the elites feel about cheap immigrant labor and Trump's wall? I suspect when Trump voters say they wanted to stick it in the eye of the elite they dont mean all capitalists, just the ones importing goods into the country along with the political and cultural establishment they fund.

I just want to cite Littlefingers „chaos is a ladder“ speech here. Because don‘t forget, „the elite“ is not about the 0,1 % , they are impervious to any danger in any case. „The elite“ rather is about the much more broad caste of entrepreneurs and investors. People who have „projects“. Not the ones who have a steady job and look forward to their weekend and time off, but the ones who work too much because they love their own little company so much they don‘t care that they spend so much time there. And for them, the „chaos“ or change of Trump really seemed more enticing than the boring continuation Clinton represented.

So, that was enough Psychoanalysis for today. Sorry for that.

 

[Tristan_C]

So they own the district forever more because they historically won elections there?

Not every district flips due to an influx of voters of color. I still don't understand what prevents Republicans from holding onto districts, regardless of how voting demographics change, by broadening their appeal to include more people.

They own such districts on account of appealing to Americans. Thus the Democrat strategy of importing foreigners. Color only matters insofar as the Democrats try to set racial identity at odds with national identity, i.e., identity politics. But again, this does not obligate Republicans to descend to your level; anyone who identifies more with American values than marxist values could potentially consider themselves Republican, and to hell with color.

 

[Gori the Grey]

whose American values, I wonder.

Big place, America. Lots of values. Which ones count as American?

 

[Tristan_C]

whose American values, I wonder.

Big place, America. Lots of values. Which ones count as American?

This is of course what I mean when I accuse the Democrats of trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity.

Making accusations like I did can be problematic. The accusation could be false, unfalsifiable and/or unverifiable and thus unfair, and such a generalization as cannot carry a valid argument. But along comes some help. At least one datum of proof, and it only took 8 minutes to arrive, unasked. It's as if I described a behavioral phenomenon: trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity, and then handed the guy a script of how to behave in order to prove my point. Currently there is a meme going around, npc, based on the idea that the left has extremely poor self-awareness. This is why. Stuff like this happens constantly.

 

[mitsho]

I just find it interesting that you put Marxist as opposite to American. An Ideology against a Nationality. That doesn't seem right, but rather stereotypical. So let me ask you: Is Brooklyn even American? If you automatically put "even more" behind that question, you might just answer that by yourself. Maybe it's not about the "foreigners", maybe it's just about change? Now maybe you didn't think that, it just seems odd to try to find national values in a Democracy that is all about the Freedom of Speech? Just seems wrong.