2020 US Election (Part One)

[hobbsyoyo]

It's all about material realities. Material reality is that no elites, zero (0), have taken any kind of material "bruising" from Trump's victory. Rhetorical bruising perhaps. Moral and emotional bruising maybe. But even Obama and Hillary aren't a cent poorer or one bit less influential or well-connected than they were before Trump won. True, Hillary didn't get to be President, but she's still the former Secretary of State and the wife of the former President.



It ain't about any leader. The people will organize their way out of this mess, or not. Bernie himself is pretty clear on that: not me, us.

FtR Bernie's my tentative first choice in the Democratic field as it currently stands.

On the elites not being bruised -

A bunch of professors are signing a petition to prevent Kerstjen from landing any cushy think tank jobs at universities now that she is out. It's bad enough when people like Sean Spicer land those jobs but when you are responsible for locking kids in cages and lying to Congress about it, you should not be accepted back into polite society.

 

[metalhead]

They own such districts on account of appealing to Americans.

I still don't understand what you mean. Foreign-born citizens aren't Americans?

But again, this does not obligate Republicans to descend to your level; anyone who identifies more with American values than marxist values could potentially consider themselves Republican, and to hell with color.

So then your problem is that people come here who don't share your arbitrary definition of "American" values?

This argument has been made here since the first waves of immigration began. Every successive wave of non-WASP migrants were going to destroy Real American Values. It has always been bigoted nonsense. We're still here.

The funniest part is, I think, where you believe your "American" values are superior, but you don't believe immigrants coming here can be convinced of that. White fragility?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Foreign-born citizens aren't Americans?

Only White Christians who can trace their ancestry back to the first settlers are Americans. Duh.
And so-called "Native Americans" don't count. Since their ancestors didn't properly apply to thew US Immigration services when they came over, the fact that they came over like 10,000 years before the US existed is no excuse! Therefore all so-called "Native Americans" are in fact, Illegal Immigrants!

 

[Takhisis]

If the Democrats want to be the global marxism self-annihilation party

Do you even know what Marxism is?

 

[El_Machinae]

This is of course what I mean when I accuse the Democrats of trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity.

You're probably misreading. There is no doubt that 'Marxist values' wouldn't really find a home in the modern Republican party. The mistake you made was opposing Marxist values with American values. 'American values' is only on the same spectrum as 'Marxist values' if the person declaring them to be dissimilar is also thinking in terms of identity politics.

Now, people will try to define which Americans values fit their definition of 'American values', but that's usually in an attempt to create an 'other'. We've all done it, I'm sure. But people objecting to a claiming of a value as 'American' are just pushing back. Republican values are not American values. They're Republican values. Someone objecting to the conflation is just preventing the effort of creating 'the other'.

 

[Takhisis]

Oh, come on, El_Machinae, we both know that ‘Marxist’ is a smear word he can use for dog-whistle tactics without being accused of racism. He doesn't have a clue what it is.

 

[onejayhawk]

Judging by the most recent CPAC, what conservatives seem to want more than anything is to preserve a white majority in the United States.

That's a, "Not a clue." Thanks.

Trump's wall is a visible symbol of the regime of legal inequality that keeps immigrant labor cheap. I imagine the elites love it not least because they know it won't actually do anything except signal that the country is uninterested in defending the rights and safety of immigrants.

Berz had a solid answer to this.

Well those supporters are dumb as hell and totally wrong.

This from a person that claims Hillary is not an elite even though she is a textbook example.

I give you this much, the parasite analogy has possibilities. Something blood sucking.

Oh, come on, El_Machinae, we both know that ‘Marxist’ is a smear word he can use for dog-whistle tactics without being accused of racism. He doesn't have a clue what it is.

While racism is a smear word used when you haven't got a decent argument.

J

 

[Takhisis]

I agree, racism is what you resorted to when you had no decent arguments to oppose Obama.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, come on, El_Machinae, we both know that ‘Marxist’ is a smear word he can use for dog-whistle tactics without being accused of racism. He doesn't have a clue what it is.

I don't think so. The term is currently undergoing a redefinition in society. But it doesn't need to be racist

 

[onejayhawk]

I agree, racism is what you resorted to when you had no decent arguments to oppose Obama.

I see what you did there.

Obama was not even in the picture but you bring him up to play a racism card. That's an intentional grounding penalty--10 yards and loss of down. It's now 4th and 35. Ar you going to punt?

J

 

[Broken_Erika]

the racism card is so effective that even the republicans made their own version of it. The "White Racism" card.

 

[cardgame]

This is of course what I mean when I accuse the Democrats of trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity.

Racial identity is set at odds with national identity when racists try to make the national identity exclusionary. In other words, it always has been at odds - since day one.

 

[Takhisis]

I don't think so. The term is currently undergoing a redefinition in society. But it doesn't need to be racist

Which is the term under redefinition? ‘Marxist’?

 

[cardgame]

A marxist is anybody you don't like whose ideas you don't understand. Just ask Jordan B Peterson, he'll tell ya.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes. 'Marxist' is classically thought of as a (mainly) economic model. It's currently undergoing a zeitgeist change. It might be worth resisting, it might end up meaning something. We'll see.

 

[Ajidica]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think will end up on the Democrats ticket in 2020? (Balancing 'electability' and your own personal preferences.)

I'm feeling Booker/Warren. Warren knows her stuff really well, but her underwhelming public speaking skills makes me want someone more charismatic at the top of the ticket and, well, might as well go with Booker as he seems the best able to get the 'Obama coalition' out to vote.

 

[El_Machinae]

Warren's best contribution are her pre-politician lectures. They're amazing. If you can get someone to listen to one, they'll at least start understanding the underlying crisis.

 

[metalhead]

That's a, "Not a clue." Thanks.

Wait, you don't actually believe that "small government, individual freedom, balanced budgets" is something conservatives really care about, do you?

I mean, I'm sure it helps you sleep at night thinking that's what conservatism is, but nah. The movement has morphed into a cell of the global white nationalist terrorist network.

 

[Takhisis]

"small government,

send in the army to do enforce on misdemeanours

individual freedom,

incarceration without trial

balanced budgets"

how much does this whole charade cost?

 

[Gori the Grey]

They own such districts on account of appealing to Americans. Thus the Democrat strategy of importing foreigners. Color only matters insofar as the Democrats try to set racial identity at odds with national identity, i.e., identity politics. But again, this does not obligate Republicans to descend to your level; anyone who identifies more with American values than marxist values could potentially consider themselves Republican, and to hell with color.

whose American values, I wonder.

Big place, America. Lots of values. Which ones count as American?

This is of course what I mean when I accuse the Democrats of trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity.

Making accusations like I did can be problematic. The accusation could be false, unfalsifiable and/or unverifiable and thus unfair, and such a generalization as cannot carry a valid argument. But along comes some help. At least one datum of proof, and it only took 8 minutes to arrive, unasked. It's as if I described a behavioral phenomenon: trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity, and then handed the guy a script of how to behave in order to prove my point. Currently there is a meme going around, npc, based on the idea that the left has extremely poor self-awareness. This is why. Stuff like this happens constantly.

Funny thing. I didn't mention race.

Possibly even funnier thing. I didn't have race in mind.

I was earnestly asking the question. What I had hoped you might provide was a list of values (e.g. say pietas, dignitas, gravitas for ancient Rome) that you thought of as American values. There are American Marxists. Are the values they hold American? Why not? They are American and they have those values? How did whatever values you regard as American values get established as American values? Are they set in stone? Has it been the same list of values since the beginning of the country? Or have they changed over time? Can whatever you regard as the American values change? How far could they change? How many are there? How many of them must one hold to be an American? Are they printed on a particular page of the Players Handbook that I might consult?

I have a different point to make that it would seem you assume. Make a saving roll against Presumption and answer the question. What are American values?