2020 US Election (Part One)

[El_Machinae]

I'm doing neither, really. Sometimes people use words differently. This is one of those words. I try to never argue about definitions, to me it's waste of time. Part of this effort on my part is to notice when definitions are what is going to cause the argument, instead of the actual underlying discussion

The academic in you will want to notice when people are using the term 'rule of law', and when they mean it colloquially and when they mean it according to a different metric. Or when they think they do

 

[Tristan_C]

To the extent that America has any "core value" it certainly isn't "the rule of law"... its Freedom... the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want, say whatever they want, think whatever they want, go wherever they want, eat whatever they want, worship however they want, vote however they want, love (or sex) whoever they want, and do it all whenever they want.

If anything the "core value" of Americans is about as contrary to the "rule of law" as it gets... we Americans are actually pretty rule averse... but its the kind of thing that you might not get if you aren't American. People have a tendency sometimes to idealize America and project their own dreams and values onto America. Speeding is a national emergency! Mothball the Marines and divert the funds to Highway patrol! These speeders must be stopped at any cost!

Another potential lexical breakdown...

I wouldn't say contrary to rule of law. Americans wrote up a binding charter defining the structure, powers, and limitations of the government, declaring goals like "establish justice" and "secure the blessings of liberty." The document was a breakthrough in civics. Its existence and ideology are integral to American culture. If we accept the definition Machinae linked, the extent to which the US government adheres to the constitution, and accommodates unconstitutional goals through the amendment procedure it requires, tracks the overall society's commitment to rule of law.

Before reading the blog post I would have said, without looking it up, that rule of law is more people-oriented than government-oriented. A society dominated by lawful people rather than law-averse people, the sorts of people who write and follow charters. I think this definition touches on more relevant issues here. This people-oriented definition holds especially true for Americans on several legal fronts: our zeal in upholding property rights, upholding contracts, protecting private activity and income, and punishing fraud. There is a reason capital has always flowed so readily into the US, and the dollar has spread. Property is safe, effort is remunerated, and honesty rewarded... at least compared to how it is everywhere else. The US economy has a rather oversized share of the world's wealth, and Chicago aside, a rather puny share of the world's corruption. I would call this situation a gift of the rule of law.

Spot on...

I you want to know what I think, people who immigrate with your attitude probably make a lot more money than people who leave their families behind and come up here just to make money. Good man.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The document was a breakthrough in civics.

Or a pretty straightforward restating of the Magna Carta, with 500 years of experience in much of western Europe applied. I guess how you choose to state that is a matter of how deep into the "American exceptionalism" mythos you happen to be.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm doing neither, really. Sometimes people use words differently. This is one of those words. I try to never argue about definitions, to me it's waste of time. Part of this effort on my part is to notice when definitions are what is going to cause the argument, instead of the actual underlying discussion

The academic in you will want to notice when people are using the term 'rule of law', and when they mean it colloquially and when they mean it according to a different metric. Or when they think they do

You're still on what, Mr. Gods of Abraham, he's onto who. Good luck.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This people-oriented definition holds especially true for Americans on several legal fronts: our zeal in upholding property rights, upholding contracts, protecting private activity and income, and punishing fraud.

There is no "our". Its pretty common for Americans to see property rights, and capitalism in general as an evil that needs to be dismantled. Many Americans view the "zeal to uphold property rights" and "protecting private activity and income" as little more that the rich using the police power to oppress the masses... of course you would disagree with those folks but that just illustrates how those values you're describing are just your values, rather than any universal "American" values. I say again... the only universal American value is freedom, particularly one's own subjective individual freedom.

Also..."punishing fraud"? bwahahaha You can't possibly think that Americans across political spectrums would agree that our country places "punishing fraud" high up on our list of values. If it did, Trump wouldn't be the POTUS... of course you disagree, but again, that just makes my point.

 

[Sommerswerd]

There is a reason capital has always flowed so readily into the US, and the dollar has spread. Property is safe, effort is remunerated, and honesty rewarded.

Americans certainly don't feel that "effort is remunerated"... just listen to people complain about pro-athlete salaries for example. Plus the election of Trump was in part, the result of folks feeling precisely that their efforts were not being remunerated wasn't it? … and "honesty rewarded"? See my above point about Trump.

And an oversimplified reason the reason the whole world uses the US dollar is because everyone spent all their gold fighting WWI and WWII, leaving the US in control of 75% of the world's gold supply. Since everyone was on the gold standard at that time, they signed the "Bretton Woods" treaty, making the US dollar the "gold standard" currency, which made sense, since the US had all the gold. Then Nixon took us off the gold standard, but everyone was already using dollars as the universal currency... so it just stayed that way basically out of convenience.​

 

[El_Machinae]

The shift in thinking, that effort is not remunerated, has certainly spread more widely recently. Even still, people think that they're getting paid for their work in a stable currency. They just might not think that their wages represent their share of the investment into the output. People have always thought that. And we'd expect the transition in thinking to spread according to partisan bias. But I personally know hard-right people who think that a UBI* is a great idea. Milton Friedman liked it for different reasons, but the understanding of the term "Citizen's Dividend" has spread.

*most people mean National Basic Income. They say 'UBI' because of the feels. I don't have a solution to this problem, because I cannot unpack a deliberate welfare state from the need to protect that welfare state. On the personal front, the best option is to help build up the economies of other places, but that's hella hard.

 

[onejayhawk]

There is no "our". Its pretty common for Americans to see property rights, and capitalism in general as an evil that needs to be dismantled. Many Americans view the "zeal to uphold property rights" and "protecting private activity and income" as little more that the rich using the police power to oppress the masses... of course you would disagree with those folks but that just illustrates how those values you're describing are just your values, rather than any universal "American" values. I say again... the only universal American value is freedom, particularly one's own subjective individual freedom.

Also..."punishing fraud"? bwahahaha You can't possibly think that Americans across political spectrums would agree that our country places "punishing fraud" high up on our list of values. If it did, Trump wouldn't be the POTUS... of course you disagree, but again, that just makes my point.

I would dispute this. Better, it's not uncommon and the viewpoint is very vocal. But it is, by far, the minority opinion. It's almost exclusive to the Democratic and Green parties so someone that swims in those waters might think it was more common. As you say, there is a similar strand of property rights defenders in the Republican party.

I think if you tried to nail down any fraud that has been attributed to the President, it would prove elusive. Reality differs from reputation.

J

 

[El_Machinae]

At the citizen level, disrespect for property rights crosses the partisan boundary quite aggressively. It just manifests itself in different ways. Some people declare that property is theft. Some people declare that taxation is theft. Some people steal property. Other people cheat on their taxes. And nearly everyone downloaded pirated materials while justifying it to themselves

 

[metalhead]

I think if you tried to nail down any fraud that has been attributed to the President,

Trump has committed tax fraud to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Why do you insist on ignorance when information is so readily available to you?

"President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found."

In other words, his entire life story of being a self-made man is a fraud he perpetrated on the American people, on addition to all the tax fraud he committed in obtaining that money from his father. He continues to lie about it to this day.

 

[Farm Boy]

And nearly everyone downloaded pirated materials while justifying it to themselves

A great many people outgrow their childish thievery. It's worth supporting the library anyways.

 

[Tristan_C]

Also..."punishing fraud"? bwahahaha You can't possibly think that Americans across political spectrums would agree that our country places "punishing fraud" high up on our list of values. If it did, Trump wouldn't be the POTUS... of course you disagree, but again, that just makes my point.

Americans certainly don't feel that "effort is remunerated"... just listen to people complain about pro-athlete salaries for example. Plus the election of Trump was in part, the result of folks feeling precisely that their efforts were not being remunerated wasn't it? … and "honesty rewarded"? See my above point about Trump.

Your misguided cynicism is simply pathetic next to this war machine. Been wronged? Cheated? Lied to? Injured? Righteous vengeance is an industry here. A national sport.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, the US certainly does seem to prefer vengeance over justice.

 

[Sommerswerd]

"There is no such thing as justice - in or out of court."

-- Clarence Darrow, famous American lawyer

 

[onejayhawk]

Trump has committed tax fraud to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Why do you insist on ignorance when information is so readily available to you?

"President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found."

In other words, his entire life story of being a self-made man is a fraud he perpetrated on the American people, on addition to all the tax fraud he committed in obtaining that money from his father. He continues to lie about it to this day.

You stand refuted by your own source--dubious. I said that if you tried to pin it down it would be difficult. If my understanding is correct, the State of New York tried to do exactly that and failed. Also, consider the source. NYT was all in on collusion, obstruction and other conspiracy theories.

BTW You are on record as saying he never made the money at all.

J

 

[Sommerswerd]

Your misguided cynicism is simply pathetic next to this war machine. Been wronged? Cheated? Lied to? Injured? Righteous vengeance is an industry here. A national sport.

LOLs... even putting aside that "righteous vengeance" and/or "fraud" isn't remotely the practice area of most lawyers... even accepting your flawed premise and assuming for the sake of discussion that all 1.2 million of those lawyers were "fraud" lawyers... you're still forgetting that the adversarial nature of our legal system means that at least half of those lawyers would be defending the person accused of fraud, not seeking "righteous vengeance" against them.

So pointing out that America has a lot of lawyers makes the point that we commit fraud at least equally as strong as it makes the point that we combat it. In other words... you're incorrect and your graph doesn't do anything to change that.

 

[Farm Boy]

"There is no such thing as justice - in or out of court."

-- Clarence Darrow, famous American lawyer

An excellent example of "watch what the lawyer does, not what the lawyer says."

 

[Sommerswerd]

A great many people outgrow their childish thievery. It's worth supporting the library anyways.

and of course by "outgrow" we mean "Get to the point in life where we have the means to easily afford paying for our media, and our income/status makes the risk-cost-benefit analysis weigh heavily in favor of doing so".

An excellent example of "watch what the lawyer does, not what the lawyer says."

That's the case with everyone... always. ​

 

[onejayhawk]

Do not, as some ungracious pastors do,
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven,
Whiles, like a puffed and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads
And recks not his own rede.​

Hamlet (1.3.49-55)

 

[Farm Boy]

and of course by "outgrow" we mean "Get to the point in life where we have the means to easily afford paying for our media, and our income/status makes the risk-cost-benefit analysis weigh heavily in favor of doing so

No, I really don't think so.

Edit: I mean, it makes sense. Maybe some people go that eminently rational way. But my personal observation would indicate, if anything, the converse. The people who enjoyed napster the most who still enjoy the dance in 2019 are generally farther up the ladder of being able to afford paying for their media. Which I think is borne out in significantly more application than digital piracy. There is way more white collar crime than strong arm. Those with much give little. You can sort of see it everywhere from uTorrent vs the library to the community chest vs a newer car. Kids still gonna steal candy bars sometimes. The heavily inebriated are still often at great personal risk.