2020 US Election (Part One)

[Berzerker]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

None of which was a power to do anything other than ordaining the Constitution

Oh no, we are also quite cynical and not idealistic at all about those who want to turn healthcare into a market.

The 'market' subsidizes government health care, we pay more for just about everything so the government pays less. The same kind of redistribution occurs with drug prices, Americans pay more for drugs to make up for the price controls other countries impose on drug companies.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: Please remember that when you quote someone that you quote fairly and don't misrepresent what they have said in order to make your comment have more power or poignancy. It's just not nice.

 

[Traitorfish]

Sure it doesn't have anything to do with their (usually sectarian and destabilizing) power grabs in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Gaza, and even Morocco? Their ideology isn't too far off from Islamic neoconservatism.

No, it's probably related to that. Nobody is disputing that Iran represents an obstacle to American interests in the region. But that does fall under the heading of "the nuclear stuff is just a pretext".

 

[mitsho]

I understand this distinction, but it doesn't hold for the current state of the government and health care, let alone for the direction people want to take it. The existence of Medicare and Medicaid makes the government more than a regulator. It's redirecting gigantic amounts of money from one sector (income of all workers, via FICA et al.) to the demand side of health care.

A well designed health care insurance (!) system gives everyone the opportunity to go to the doctor they want, it doesn't tell you where you have to go. It creates the possibility to act on the market. And yes, the government being at the same time provider AND regulator (AND Insurance) can create problems. It still has more roles than one which makes health care intensively more complex of a political field.

The same democratic process is behind both the military and medicare. My issue was peoples' seeming blind faith that the government is up to the task of handling things they want the government to handle. The health care industry is but one prime example. Meanwhile they are realistic, or downright cynical, about the military, which as it happens is constitutionally authorized. National defense, particularly with the kind of hardware we have now, is the sort of thing that only the federal government can and should do. Pills aren't. Medicare isn't.

We actually have zero historical evidence that the US government is "good" at regulating health care, let alone providing it to hundreds of millions. Its track record on this is pure garbage. And people kick their cynicism and want more of it. It's just astounding.

Yeah, that's an intra-american issue. I can't really speak to that. People are complicated. One thing they know from their daily life, the other they don't. It's a mix of ideology and experience. I'm still not sure that "these liberals" wholly believe in Medicare for all, but they prefer it to the status Quo and political rallies need simple rallying cries? But I'm sure you'll just prove me that people sincerely believe that. Again, I can't really speak to that and it's not true for my European context.

 

[onejayhawk]

I heard an interesting remark. It compared Joe Biden in 2020 to Bob Dole in 1996. Parallels between Trump and Clinton are nontrivial. Both were embattled, facing a special investigation an lost the House at midterm. Personally, they were both charming and used their charisma to win unexpected elections. There are even #metoo parallels to make. Dole, like Biden, was a Senator and a party elder statesman, running for the third time. Biden was VP. Dole was a VP candidate. In the election, charisma crushed seniority. So goes the argument.

I don't buy as a unit. Clinton's problems were his own doing and he was successful in burying many of them. Trump's scandal turned out to be unfounded and, ironically, largely manufactured by a Clinton. Dole was Senate Leader while Biden was just another guy in office. The media hates Trump but loved Clinton.

All that said, the idea of The Democrats allowing Biden a last hurrah is worthwhile. Even failed Presidential candidates are remembered. Biden is the inoffensive alternative when your own choice is polling 2%. Parallels to both John McCain and Mitch Romney are unforced. The Republicans had their own generational turnover a decade ago. Just remember how 1996, 2012 and O'Connor's book all turned out.

J

 

[Socrates99]

Biden is a lot more charismatic than Dole and can ride on nostalgia for the Obama presidency too in a way Dole never could. Trump won't beat him on Charisma alone. I know a lot of Trump voters who held their nose while casting their vote his way simply because they understandably abhorred the alternative (Bill was horrible for my state).

The way Trump beats Biden is because GoP voters are more willing to overlook gaffes and scandals that Democrats. Republicans circle the wagons while Democrats create circular firing squads. Biden is a gaffe machine and has been on the wrong side of nearly every vote we look back on with regret while saying "sounded good at the time..." He can't survive that.

 

[onejayhawk]

Biden is a lot more charismatic than Dole and can ride on nostalgia for the Obama presidency too in a way Dole never could. Trump won't beat him on Charisma alone. I know a lot of Trump voters who held their nose while casting their vote his way simply because they understandably abhorred the alternative (Bill was horrible for my state).

The way Trump beats Biden is because GoP voters are more willing to overlook gaffes and scandals that Democrats. Republicans circle the wagons while Democrats create circular firing squads. Biden is a gaffe machine and has been on the wrong side of nearly every vote we look back on with regret while saying "sounded good at the time..." He can't survive that.

If Biden was more charismatic than Dole, why was Dole senior leadership and not Biden? Dole's problem is that his charm did not come across on TV.

Gaffs I give you on Trump, but what scandals? The Russia/collusion/obstruction thing turned out to be unsupported. Trump's base is pissed that he had to actually prove his innocence.

You have a point about Biden's history of athlete's tongue. Trump does even more, but his have a way of turning out better, even prophetic. Still, given Trump's foot-in-mouth problem, can Biden slide a bit on his?

J

 

[Socrates99]

What scandals? Anybody who hasn't been living under a rock since 2016 can rattle off a few. The one that should have tanked him with the so called "family values" party would probably be sleeping with a porn star and a playboy model while his third wife was pregnant then lying about how the NDAs were set up in order to weasel out of campaign finance violation charges. I'd list more but just the "what scandals?" question alone tells me you're not interested in honest conversation.

As for getting party leadership with zero charisma look no further than Pelosi and Schumer. Those two have the Charisma of a wet mop and a tax audit. It's all about who can get donations and use them to control party politics.

Biden being able to skate by his gaffes comes back to that circular firing squad thing. It wasn't just right wingers roasting Hillary for the purse hot sauce and "Pokemon go to the polls!"

 

[Farm Boy]

Trump's scandals are different. He's a walking P-O-S that's never pretended to be anything but. He was on TV for years being a horrible boss. He's been on TV for years being an absolute heinous garbage husband. He reneges on his marital promises, his financial promises, he's a bankrupt moral choice literally and figuratively. Anyone voting for him is realpolitiking, in denial, under a rock, or whatever. It's easy to underestimate exactly how little good grace his opponents often enjoy*, but either way: Trump is an ass clown. Scandal is his appeal.

*no mean feat. I still cringe everytime some bigwig TV/news numbnutz literally insults the the personal attributes through mocking the food of an enormous voter base. Seriously, Trump's an asswipe, but he's far away. Hate much closer to home can easily rule the day, and "WTH McDonalds how trashy" is much closer to home.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump, Biden and Pelosi are all showing verbal signs of old age, trouble locating words, maintaining focus, etc. Actually Trump's probably a little better off so far if rambling isn't also a sign of old age. I want to see them give speeches w/o teleprompters.

 

[rah]

Trump is more likely to just make stuff up when not using a teleprompter if his rallies are any indication.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump is going after Biden's support among black voters by focusing tweets on the 1994 crime bill. How did Trump feel about Clinton's 100,000 new cops on the streets program? Hmm... Andrea Mitchell of MSNBC defended Biden by claiming the bill passed overwhelmingly. That wasn't true, it passed the House 235-195 and the GOP overwhelmingly voted against it, probably because of gun control laws. Thats why I cant support Sanders either, he voted for it too.

 

[rah]

Nothing funnier than watching two old white guys pandering to blacks hoping they'll believe anything they say, since old white guys have always supported them in the past.

 

[Berzerker]

Yup, the Dems need new blood... Going up against an old white guy with a dubious record on race relations with another old white guy with a dubious record on race relations is problematic.

 

[rah]

But what better way to steal the votes from a an old white racist than to use another old white racist.

 

[Berzerker]

lol, you done one upped me, touche

 

[Socrates99]

Trump's scandals are different. He's a walking P-O-S that's never pretended to be anything but. He was on TV for years being a horrible boss. He's been on TV for years being an absolute heinous garbage husband. He reneges on his marital promises, his financial promises, he's a bankrupt moral choice literally and figuratively. Anyone voting for him is realpolitiking, in denial, under a rock, or whatever. It's easy to underestimate exactly how little good grace his opponents often enjoy*, but either way: Trump is an ass clown. Scandal is his appeal.

*no mean feat. I still cringe everytime some bigwig TV/news numbnutz literally insults the the personal attributes through mocking the food of an enormous voter base. Seriously, Trump's an asswipe, but he's far away. Hate much closer to home can easily rule the day, and "WTH McDonalds how trashy" is much closer to home.

Trashing him for fast food is silly. Definitely right there.

I do hear he likes ketchup on well done steaks though. That's a sin stacked on top of another sin there.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm guilty of that, a well done steak is too dry for my liking. Now a rare, juicy, fat-laden rib eye doesn't need ketchup or anything.

 

[Estebonrober]

If Biden was more charismatic than Dole, why was Dole senior leadership and not Biden? Dole's problem is that his charm did not come across on TV.

Gaffs I give you on Trump, but what scandals? The Russia/collusion/obstruction thing turned out to be unsupported. Trump's base is pissed that he had to actually prove his innocence.

You have a point about Biden's history of athlete's tongue. Trump does even more, but his have a way of turning out better, even prophetic. Still, given Trump's foot-in-mouth problem, can Biden slide a bit on his?

J

This is why we can’t have nice things in America people. Posts like this and the hive mind it represents.

 

[rah]

Trump's base is pissed that he had to actually prove his innocence.

Fortunately Trump needs more than just his base to win, and those not in his base aren't pissed about it at all.

It will be interesting decades from now, where it will hopefully be long enough for the partisanship to be weak enough, that to see what is generally considered the truth of what happened. Somehow I think the blind support of him won't survive the test of time. For now I'm sure others will think the opposite.