2020 US Election (Part Two)

[hobbsyoyo]

How is that a strawman? You said those forces screwed the American people. I made fun of the logistics of that notion but I did not make a straw man of the bail of hay you threw down and lit on fire.

 

[Ironsided]

That’s not the issue. The issue is falsely accusing people who will not vote for Biden to be supporters of Donald Trump.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That’s not what anyone said. Why are you straw manning with ridiculous fantasies?

There are plenty of good reasons to not vote either Trump or Biden if you support progressive policy. The number one is to be breaking the cycle of being taken for granted. Unless progressive supporters put their foot down, they will rightfully be taken for granted again and again as they have been for years and that is not a strong position to be in. This won’t stop. The establishment have no sympathy for dissidents. They will keep taking advantage until you make them stop. What power does a Bernie supporter have on them? The vote – that’s it. To demand they cast it for someone who cares nothing for them is a form of social pressure black mail. BJ should know better and stop doing that.

If folks want to vote third party, great, they should do so and support their candidate. I'm all for people making a positive case for who they like. I am not in favor of constant negative posting. Truth in advertising: I do violate this by being negative about Trump because he has demonstrated his lack of respect for US law and the constitution and has brought criminal elements into his administration. I am for anyone but him to be president. If the Lincoln Project ran a candidate for president, they would be better than Trump. I'd be quite happy to discuss any third party candidates. Who are they? November is an important election; the stakes are high for US citizens. Who are you going to vote for?

 

[Birdjaguar]

That’s not the issue. The issue is falsely accusing people who will not vote for Biden to be supporters of Donald Trump.

That is the reality of come November.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That’s not what anyone said. Why are you straw manning with ridiculous fantasies?

Because your paranoid fantasies about how "the nomination was stolen" are poisonous. Lying about how "the DNC did it" or whatever you tell yourself to make you feel better about being flat out wrong is fine...if you keep it to yourself. Spreading your ego salving false accusations, on the other hand, is not.

Sanders got beat because he didn't get the votes. Period. He damaged his own support by dragging his supporters through a lost cause campaign in 2016, which is a big part of why he has less support now than he had then. He is currently in a position where he has to decide between his ego and the progressive movement, because dragging them through the rest of a severe drubbing will put a stake through its heart.

 

[Berzerker]

When it is clear that Biden will be the nominee, which it is now, to dis Biden is to support Trump. It is no different than when I go after Trump, I am supporting the Democratic nominee. And as he has said himself, his goal is to be entertained by the discord in US politics. He has been feeding that discord all along with his posts.

So would you agree with Republicans if they accuse Trump's critics of supporting Biden?

To vote for Trump is to support Trump. To diss Biden is to diss Biden. People can vote third party, write in Bernie or someone else or vote a blank in protest. All are democratically viable and honourable options. You are calling far more people than Kyriakos Trump supporters without any justification

Us & them justifies boxes, welcome to your box Trump supporter.

 

[Zardnaar]

That’s not the issue. The issue is falsely accusing people who will not vote for Biden to be supporters of Donald Trump.

In effect that's the option you have this cycle.

We've been accused if being fascists and fascist enablers by the far left for a while. Well fascists got elected in Germany.

Not American but I would vote against Trump and that includes if Sanders had won. I also would gave voted for Sanders over Biden in the primaries.

But im a fascist enabler for not being sufficiently woke.

It's not because I don't care about liberal causes but I do care about how to get them enacted. You can't do that if you lose elections. And if the hard right wins which is Trump things go backwards. Pissing off everyone to the right of Sanders isn't a winning strategy.

Also see Trump's bungling of the current crisis. I don't see Biden fumbling it as bad as he at least would take advice and doesn't have Trump's narcissistic tendencies.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So would you agree with Republicans if they accuse Trump's critics of supporting Biden?

Pretty much; there could be exceptions, but those regularly critical of Trump are being supportive of the Dems. Even the Lincoln Project, Republicans who don't like Trump, are in effect supporting Dems.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Biden would surround himself with competent leaders as Obama did. That's not to say he or Obama have perfect track records, but their press conferences in crisis are more substantive than 'look how glorious the leader is'.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So would you agree with Republicans if they accuse Trump's critics of supporting Biden?

In a two party system opposing one is in fact supporting the other. That's why no matter how often you make your "I'm an independent" claim, people who watch what you do call you a Republican.

 

[Kaitzilla]

https://thebulwark.com/the-sanders-campaign-is-now-a-menace-to-our-public-health/

The Sanders Campaign Is a Menace to Public Health

Bernie Sanders can't beat Joe Biden.
But he can force millions of people to risk being exposed to the coronavirus.

Does running for President make someone evil?
Poor Bernie Sanders.​

 

[Timsup2nothin]

https://thebulwark.com/the-sanders-campaign-is-now-a-menace-to-our-public-health/
The Sanders Campaign Is a Menace to Public Health


Bernie Sanders can't beat Joe Biden.
But he can force millions of people to risk being exposed to the coronavirus.

Does running for President make someone evil?
Poor Bernie Sanders.​

When you link something that includes "I don't take responsibility at all" in their masthead, but post isolated quotes as if you are citing a genuine news source, it is pretty misleading. Was that intentional?

 

[Kaitzilla]

When you link something that includes "I don't take responsibility at all" in their masthead, but post isolated quotes as if you are citing a genuine news source, it is pretty misleading. Was that intentional?

It is a sentiment that is out there.

**Edit**
Here is a much less bomb-throwing opinion piece also calling on Sanders to quit and help public health.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...op-out-democratic-primary-sake-public-health/


'The Bulwark' appears to be a website made by Never-Trump Neo-cons after The Weekly Standard went under.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bulwark_(website)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It is a sentiment that is out there.

Yeah. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

 

[Berzerker]

That is the reality of come November.

Not voting for Biden means voting for Trump? With a little twist to that logic, if Biden loses wont you be the Trump supporter? I mean, you might already be since he got elected in 2016 with help from Hillary supporters.

Pretty much; there could be exceptions, but those regularly critical of Trump are being supportive of the Dems. Even the Lincoln Project, Republicans who don't like Trump, are in effect supporting Dems.

What about the millions of people who wont vote for either the turd or douche? People who criticized Hitler must have been Stalin supporters.

In a two party system opposing one is in fact supporting the other. That's why no matter how often you make your "I'm an independent" claim, people who watch what you do call you a Republican.

I'm not an independent, I vote Libertarian. I also lean contrarian so if Trump voters ran the echo chamber here I'd be arguing with them about their sacred cow and they'd be calling me a Democrat. Over at Poly I got accused of being a liberal/Democrat by the forum's diehard Republicans. See how that works? You're either with us or against us, a very Trump-like attitude.

Moderator Action: Be less contrarian in future, thanks. We'll all get on better. ~ Arakhor

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not an independent, I vote Libertarian. I also lean contrarian so if Trump voters ran the echo chamber here I'd be arguing with them about their sacred cow and they'd be calling me a Democrat. Over at Poly I got accused of being a liberal/Democrat by the forum's diehard Republicans. See how that works? You're either with us or against us, a very Trump-like attitude.

Thanks for admitting that your only real interest on internet forums is in picking fights. There's a word for that, right? Ummm...what is that word again? @Arakhor? @Lemon Merchant? What is that word for posters who just come on forums looking to cause disruptions? I'm sure you must be familiar with it and get more reminders than I do...I've forgotten...

 

[mitsho]

It's okay to not vote for Biden as a Sanders supporter. As long as you live in a state where your vote doesn't matter, say California or Wyoming. But please for the sake of the rest of the world, don't do that in a swing state.

 

[IglooDame]

I face this choice most elections, as an ornery libertarian. "You're throwing your vote away!" and "You're helping the other guy win!" are the two things I usually hear. In 2016 I didn't vote for either Trump or Clinton, they were both such miserable options to me. This election is I think the first time I've ever truly felt like one candidate was so bad that I'd vote against them with the other candidate, no matter what. And I'd vote for Biden even if I lived in Massachusetts or Wyoming, because I'm not just concerned about who wins, but by how much because a narrow victory might enable Trump to stir the pot. So yeah, for once I am on the other side of that fence, voting for the lesser of two evils.

 

[Zardnaar]

I face this choice most elections, as an ornery libertarian. "You're throwing your vote away!" and "You're helping the other guy win!" are the two things I usually hear. In 2016 I didn't vote for either Trump or Clinton, they were both such miserable options to me. This election is I think the first time I've ever truly felt like one candidate was so bad that I'd vote against them with the other candidate, no matter what. And I'd vote for Biden even if I lived in Massachusetts or Wyoming, because I'm not just concerned about who wins, but by how much because a narrow victory might enable Trump to stir the pot. So yeah, for once I am on the other side of that fence, voting for the lesser of two evils.

That's the spirit. In a normal election I agree with your sentiment's.

This is not a normal election.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's okay to not vote for Biden as a Sanders supporter. As long as you live in a state where your vote doesn't matter, say California or Wyoming. But please for the sake of the rest of the world, don't do that in a swing state.

The level of disgust with Trump is so high that states not normally associated as 'swing' may actually come into play. There are very serious senate campaigns being waged in states where the idea of a Democrat even trying was basically absurd in the recent past. For example: Mitch McConnell in Kentucky has always been far more concerned about getting primaried than about actually losing in November. The democrats who have run against him have been either vanity candidates* or resume candidates**. This year McGrath is a real candidate and is deadly serious about winning...and is polling really well currently. The damage that Trump has piled onto the Republican brand is very real, and there are very few states that are "lock red" at this point.


*Candidate knows they aren't going to win, but for the sufficiently rich saying "oh I ran for Senate" is sort of like "I did a volunteer shift down at the hospital" is for normal people. Sort of a 'look how civic minded I am, and have I got some stories' thing.
** Candidate is politically connected and could be tapped for some sort of appointment. Ran for the Senate is a good line on the resume.