2020 US Election (Part Two)

[MagisterCultuum]

Who is doing his job as a... former VP?

Former Senator from MBNA, champion of the big banks and credit card companies whenever their interests are at odds with the public good. To be consistent with his record, Biden should be fighting to make sure only the largest and most politically crony capitalists get any bailout money while ordinary people are never allowed to use bankruptcy to discharge any debts incurred during the crisis and are sure to be imprisoned for trying to self medicate with anything the FDA hasn't approved for that purpose.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The rare exception being, when you can get an exciting, young, charismatic, universally appealing candidate to be the flag-bearer... Still holding out hope for AOC in that regard.

She needs a few years of seasoning and congressional experience.

Gavin Newsom 2024

He's going to crush the competition.

Critical question (which I haven't yet looked up): what's the makeup of the remaining 60ish senators, R/D-wise? A quorum is 51 Senators, so in theory Senate business could still be conducted at that point.

I tried to figure that out, and did read what I figured were the relevant articles, but on this the constitution seems vague. I think that a case could be made that with the expiration of terms there is no congress, period. The Senators who have time left on their term are automatically going to be in the next congress, but until that congress is seated they really can't do much of anything and that congress can't be seated until both houses are represented. That was my take on it and I'd argue it, but if someone finds something applicable and can make a better case I'm not gonna fight it.

For the record, there are 33 democrats, 30 republicans, and 2 independents carrying over into the next senate. Currently. At this point it is realistic to note that some of them may die between now and January.

I wonder if there are by-laws in the Congress that spell out what should happen under various scenarios since the constitution is largely mum

 

[Sommerswerd]

Gavin Newsom 2024

Also acceptable... No idea why he didn't run this cycle it was his to lose

 

[Birdjaguar]

Also acceptable... No idea why he didn't run this cycle it was his to lose

Maybe he is waiting for the older white guys guys to fade away.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Also acceptable... No idea why he didn't run this cycle it was his to lose

He may have just wanted to be a governor and not go for all that. The governorship was a sure thing, the presidency, not so much.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Maybe he is waiting for the older white guys guys to fade away.

By the time that happens he will be one.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

He may have just wanted to be a governor and not go for all that. The governorship was a sure thing, the presidency, not so much.

Whether he just wanted to be a governor or not, he is one. There are definitely states where the governor can just take his show on the road and run a presidential campaign in his spare time. California isn't one of them.

 

[Takhisis]

It's too late and I'm enjoying coronaisolation too much (ie drinking) to look it up, but my hot take is that if it comes to that... 60ish Senators amending the Constitution and such... that's a paddlin' Civil War

You don't need to do that, but you need somebody to confirm appointments and conduct some sort of foreign relations even if administrative agencies and/or state governments still stand.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You don't need to do that, but you need somebody to confirm appointments and conduct some sort of foreign relations even if administrative agencies and/or state governments still stand.

That's why congress' term ends January 3rd and the executive term runs through March 19th. At least in theory a governor presented with "there is no congress and you have two and a half months to get your part of one elected before the last card in the deck hits the table" goes out and gets the elections done. That way there is a congress in place, and since there is a provision for filling the presidency from the congress continuity of the executive is assured. And since the only way to fill house seats is open elections it is at least nominally a democratic process.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's why congress' term ends January 3rd and the executive term runs through March 19th.

The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

text of the 20th ammendment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

If there is no election, his term expires next year on Jan 20th.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Trump can't cancel the election. It's managed by the states.

Which is not to say he won't 1) say that he can, 2) try to by pressuring red-state governors to pressure their boards of elections.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Good change. In the 1700s two months wasn't a long time. It is now. The problem with the 20th amendment is that in making a provision for "no presidential election" it didn't provide any guidance for a lack of congressional elections, and since those elections are generally simultaneous that's kind of a glaring omission.

 

[Patine]

Good change. In the 1700s two months wasn't a long time. It is now. The problem with the 20th amendment is that in making a provision for "no presidential election" it didn't provide any guidance for a lack of congressional elections, and since those elections are generally simultaneous that's kind of a glaring omission.

Congressional elections were not generally simultaneous in the earlier days of the U.S., but often staggered from state-to-state, for various reasons of communication, travel, and remoteness that don't plague the nation today. The writers of Constitutional law would have been viewing things from this perspective, as well.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Congressional elections were not generally simultaneous in the earlier days of the U.S., but often staggered from state-to-state, for various reasons of communication, travel, and remoteness that don't plague the nation today. The writers of Constitutional law would have been viewing things from this perspective, as well.

Within each state the congressional election and presidential election were still generally simultaneous, so if for whatever reason a presidential election were not held there'd likely be no congressional elections either. I really don't see how they skipped over that when they drafted the 20th amendment. Although perhaps they just accepted that there was no real ambiguity about that in the base document...governors are very specifically directed to hold elections for vacant house seats. It would still be nice to see some sort of time limit imposed there.

Trump can't cancel the election. It's managed by the states.

Which is not to say he won't 1) say that he can, 2) try to by pressuring red-state governors to pressure their boards of elections.

Thing is that under one of these emergency acts that he is calling he very likely has been granted authority by congress to do things that would make current state electoral process impossible; similar to how the state health officer in Ohio couldn't postpone the primary but he did have the authority to prevent polling places from being opened. Legislatures accidentally give administrators unintended power all the time. If Trump finds some such loophole and gives such an order congress would have to take action to rescind that authority unless exercising it was a direct violation of the constitution, in which case the courts would have to strike down the authorizing statute to invalidate the order.

The only bright spot in that is that the constitution seriously does not care if there has been a successor elected; Trump's term ends, period.

 

[mitsho]

Or they just have to do all voting by mail (or electronically). May take a bit longer, but there are no lines and people surely will not miss them afterwards. In crisis, the unthinkable becomes the inevitable after all.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Or they just have to do all voting by mail (or electronically). May take a bit longer, but there are no lines and people surely will not miss them afterwards. In crisis, the unthinkable becomes the inevitable after all.

Oh, no question that's a way to move forward around such an order, but that requires serious action by every state where 100% vote by mail isn't the current process.

It's an interesting constitutional law exercise still. Can such an order be issued based on the states can alter their process, or does the current lawful process combined with the constitutional requirement to hold the election make the order itself unconstitutional? Ohio is offering a test case, in most senses. The primary that got derailed isn't specifically called for by the constitution, but the courts did deny the governor's claim that he had the authority to postpone the election, and the denial was on grounds that do run really close to direct constitutional requirements. I suspect that when the dust settles there the statute establishing the State Health Officer will be ordered changed on grounds that the state legislature gave him power that they didn't have the authority to give.

 

[IglooDame]

The only bright spot in that is that the constitution seriously does not care if there has been a successor elected; Trump's term ends, period.

And really, presumably Trump utterly believes he's going to win another term anyway, thus he's going to be pushing harder than anyone else in the US to hold federal elections correctly, and as a bonus if they're held but have "irregularities" it gives him an out to attempt to stay in office that the 20th amendment removes if the election doesn't happen. Not that Donald Trump is aware of the 20th amendment. Or really, the US Constitution itself.

Though it raises the really intriguing question, does Donald Trump really believe his own lies, or not?

 

[Takhisis]

Though it raises the really intriguing question, does Donald Trump really believe his own lies, or not?

He's a case of complete pathological doublethink.

 

[Patine]

He's a case of complete pathological doublethink.

They used to call just twisted, egotistical, and manipulative deliberate form of self-deception to be entirely convincing to outsiders "the Truth of the Rom," until the term was declared Antiziganist and pergorative...

 

[Takhisis]

Well, it is, because it's definitely not privy to us.