2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Lexicus]

That required the complicity of the Senate. Avoiding election day would require the complicity of the Senate and the House. I don't foresee that happening.

See, I just don't think this is really true. I think that a highly likely scenario is that the House tries to litigate it and Trump effectively serves a second term while the matter is tied up in the courts.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So if/when he just does it anyway, who stops him?

Law enforcement. "Just does away with it" is open commission of a crime, unless somewhere in one of these "declared emergency" acts that he is invoking congress has foolishly empowered him to do it. Under that circumstance congress will have exceeded their own authority, but holding them to account for it would be messy. At the end of the day though the result would be in the hands of the military. They are sworn to defend the constitution, and the constitution very plainly states that election or no election, Trump's term ends in January.

 

[Ajidica]

Anyway I consider the "coronavirus opportunity" has been likely missed by the Democrats thanks to their zombie ideology: a majority of Americans now approve of Trump's handling of the coronavirus.

Isn't it "good" that some people sat him down and told him to quit screwing around and let the experts take the lead? In a situation like this, there isn't much that any president can do other than put the experts in charge and sign off on orders pre-emptively permitting federal actions.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Isn't it "good" that some people sat him down and told him to quit screwing around and let the experts take the lead? In a situation like this, there isn't much that any president can do other than put the experts in charge and sign off on orders pre-emptively permitting federal actions.

Do you expect that to last though?

Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute on Allergy and Infectious Disease, is the guy. Been in his position since 1984, clearly non-partisan, expert to the experts.

Ten bucks says Trump fires him before this is over.

 

[cardgame]

Law enforcement. "Just does away with it" is open commission of a crime, unless somewhere in one of these "declared emergency" acts that he is invoking congress has foolishly empowered him to do it. Under that circumstance congress will have exceeded their own authority, but holding them to account for it would be messy. At the end of the day though the result would be in the hands of the military. They are sworn to defend the constitution, and the constitution very plainly states that election or no election, Trump's term ends in January.

He's already done open commissions of crime

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Do you expect that to last though?

Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute on Allergy and Infectious Disease, is the guy. Been in his position since 1984, clearly non-partisan, expert to the experts.

Ten bucks says Trump fires him before this is over.

He already directly contradicts the things that Fauci said, within literal seconds of having said them on live TV. Whether or not he fires the guy, it's still baffling to think anyone thinks Trump is doing a good job. Well, baffling for those that don't watch Fox News all day and whine about the libs.

 

[Patine]

Please justify any "cold truths" you included in this post. I don't think there are any, I think it was just a screaming fit screed at me, but in case I missed something...

Your debating logic of what evidence to demand, when, declaring the complete relevance of topic and discussion on your terms and as they benefit you, and declare you is screaming and is rationally stating facts, may work if your making imperious Platonic-style dialogues to a cult following, but not with intelligent, educated human beings who have their own opinions and are not beholden to you as the moderator and topic minder AND a debater.

So if/when he just does it anyway, who stops him?

I can't understand this ridiculous "comicbook supervillain mastermind with greater inherent capabilities than anyone else on the planet who just can't be stopped," view many have of Trump. He's not Doctor Doom or General Zod, for crying out loud!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

He's already done open commissions of crime

For example?

I know that you and I can agree that he has, but there are nuances in play. As @Lexicus mentioned, the whole "just call him 'acting' and let him claim the powers of an actually confirmed appointee is illegal, but only the Senate can claim injured party status and they just won't, so there's no enforcement. His other crimes are similarly nuanced. But if he doesn't leave office as directed by the constitution, that's an actual "I took an oath" issue for the military, and I don't really think the military likes him enough to let it pass.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Election day is just set by law...notably by a law that would have to be actively repealed, not just tacitly ignored. However the end of term is in the 20th amendment. That's the real hook, because no amount of "we are ignoring the legally mandated election day" can change the immutable constitutionally stated fact that Trump's term will end. "We didn't hold an election so I guess I'll just stay" cannot in any way be depicted as anything but a direct conflict with the constitution.

Thanks Tim.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Your debating logic of what evidence to demand, when, declaring the complete relevance of topic and discussion on your terms and as they benefit you, and declare you is screaming and is rationally stating facts, may work if your making imperious Platonic-style dialogues to a cult following, but not with intelligent, educated human beings who have their own opinions and are not beholden to you as the moderator and topic minder AND a debater.

So I take it there were no "cold truths" in there since you are opting to just continue your unsupported screed. You would be really wise to get back to the topic at hand and forget your campaign against my imagined vices.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Does the evocation of martial law by the president allow the suspension of the Constitution?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Thanks Tim.

You're welcome. Post was edited for clarity, please requote.

Does the evocation of martial law by the president allow the suspension of the Constitution?

Only if the military says it does. I'm pretty confident that that won't happen any time soon.

 

[Patine]

For example?

I know that you and I can agree that he has, but there are nuances in play. As @Lexicus mentioned, the whole "just call him 'acting' and let him claim the powers of an actually confirmed appointee is illegal, but only the Senate can claim injured party status and they just won't, so there's no enforcement. His other crimes are similarly nuanced. But if he doesn't leave office as directed by the constitution, that's an actual "I took an oath" issue for the military, and I don't really think the military likes him enough to let it pass.

The oath of allegiance is to the office of the President, not personally to Donald Trump, as an individual. If he loses the election, and does not leave office, he is no longer legally or Constitutionally President. In fact, he's in a state of treason and insurgency. And squatting on Government property (the White House).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The oath of allegiance is to the office of the President, not personally to Donald Trump, as an individual. If he loses the election, and does not leave office, he is no longer legally or Constitutionally President. In fact, he's in a state of treason and insurgency. And squatting on Government property (the White House).

I was actually referring to the "uphold and defend the constitution" part. Yes, everything you said in this post is correct...but the "if he loses the election" part is not really relevant. The constitution mandates the end of his term no matter what. If there is no elected successor that is a huge problem, but it doesn't change the fact that his term will end. I would expect the military to tell him to GTFO.

 

[Patine]

Does the evocation of martial law by the president allow the suspension of the Constitution?

I don't think there's any legal mechanism at all on the books to completely suspend the Constitution. That's something you usually only hear about Third World despots doing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think there's any legal mechanism at all on the books to completely suspend the Constitution.

While I like the optimism, and believe you are technically correct, there is an unfortunate example readily at hand. Ohio law, on the books, has placed potentially unconstitutional authority into the hands of the State Health Officer. I am confident that no one at the time realized that was happening, and I am moderately confident that the occupant of the office would not actually try to wield that power in open contradiction of the constitution, but the methods of redress if he tried are...muddied...at best.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that at some point the US Congress made some sort of similar error, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Trump were to try to exploit it. I am really down to confidence in the military as the only bulwark against it.

Interesting observation after some further examination. The congress expires on the third of January, and the constitution specifically requires the state executives (governors) to hold an election to fill all vacancies. So presidential election question aside, if there isn't an election by the third of January there will have to be one then, constitutionally speaking. Not doing so defies article one, section two, upon which the entire construction of United States government is built since article one is the foundation of government authority.

 

[Takhisis]

Anyway I consider the "coronavirus opportunity" has been likely missed by the Democrats thanks to their zombie ideology: a majority of Americans now approve of Trump's handling of the coronavirus.

*palm to the face*

 

[Timsup2nothin]

a majority of Americans now approve of Trump's handling of the coronavirus.

In October of 2001 approval of GWBush was running 90%. D'ump will experience similar decline as reality sets in, and he is starting from a far lower point in a crisis that is hitting almost everyone much closer to home.

 

[Zardnaar]

In October of 2001 approval of GWBush was running 90%. D'ump will experience similar decline as reality sets in, and he is starting from a far lower point in a crisis that is hitting almost everyone much closer to home.

Wait until the body bags pile up and jobs disappear.

 

[Ironsided]

That’s when senile Joseph Biden will ride in on his white horse stuttering and stumbling over his words reading the teleprompter message of neoliberal corporate bailouts conjured up by Perez, Schumer and Pelosi with Obama and Clinton in the back seat.