2020 US Election (Part Two)

[sophie]

New paper from the 3P (People's Policy Project): https://www.peoplespolicyproject.or...nd-bidencare-would-affect-union-health-plans/

Conclusion:

As a historical matter, it was smart for unions to take advantage of the Taft-Hartley Act to create multiemployer union health plans for their members. One of the things that gets lost in the discussion about healthcare reform is how similar Medicare for All is to these union plans. What unions recognized long ago is that it is much better for workers to create a central healthcare fund that many employers contribute into than to have a bunch of independent plans organized within each company. Medicare for All is just the logical extension of this insight to the whole economy. It is, in a sense, just one big multiemployer fund.

In light of the coronavirus catastrophe and the objective superiority of Medicare for All to existing union health plans—in terms of cost, solvency, and continuity of coverage—we believe that unions like IUPAT should take a stance in favor of Medicare for All for the benefit of their own members and the working class generally.

 

[amadeus]

A personal anecdote:

Well, the way I’m looking at things now I think times of disaster are when it’s best to have a shakeup of things. What’s that old saying, “don’t switch horses midstream?” Maybe I’m mixing them. Anyway, point is that I think Trump’s administration will ultimately be tainted by the coronavirus, and it’s probably too late for there to be a strong turnaround.

I don’t know if you can have good public leadership if you don’t have confidence in the leaders. Maybe Trump has made all the right decisions? It won’t matter if people think that isn’t so. I’ve certainly lost some faith in him.

Some people in my family I talk to are very much Trump stalwarts, and some very anti-Trump. But what I’ve seen is less confidence on the pro-Trump side, even if the anti-Trump side has conceded that the nightmare scenario of a fascist dystopia didn’t play out. Now I’m hearing about a communist dystopia. In the interest of keeping on good terms with everyone, I don’t fight about—much less talk about—politics with hardly anyone anymore.

 

[r16]

that Trump didn't yet manage to have bonfires of books , surrounded by the firebrigade and a cheering squad of girls shouting "Four-Five-One" does not signify it is already over .

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well, the way I’m looking at things now I think times of disaster are when it’s best to have a shakeup of things. What’s that old saying, “don’t switch horses midstream?” Maybe I’m mixing them.

Yes, you are. You seem to be saying that the current crisis is the best time to change POTUS'es. Conversely, the old adage "Don't switch horses mid-stream" is a classic political slogan that encourages folks to re-elect the incumbent, particularly in times of distress. The reasoning being that when you are in a precarious situation, the last thing you want to do is change leaders as it will just create more confusion and more risk of something else going wrong. The image/idea the slogan invokes is a person making a river crossing on a horse would be foolish to try to jump off the back of one horse onto another while they are crossing the river, because there is a high risk that they will fall off and be swept away... better to just stick with the horse you are already on until you've completely crossed the river.

As an aside... in the movie Wag the Dog one of the main characters calls that particular slogan "Age-old horse ****", which it is.

the nightmare scenario of a fascist dystopia didn’t play out.

It didn't? Since when? Where have you been for the past 2 years? The past 6 months?? The current mess we are in is exactly... EXACTLY like a "nightmare scenario/fascist dystopia". Its actually far beyond my wildest dreams of how bad things were going to get under Trump. As a matter of fact, anecdotally... I can recall 5 separate conversations this weekend with 5 different people, where the specific phrase "this is like being in a nightmare" was used to describe the current state of things in the US.

There's a lot spectrum between a Mad Max / Post-Judgment day Terminator 2 hellscape and a "nightmare scenario". This is definitely a nightmare scenario we are in.

 

[sophie]

Just profoundly cursed ****. I hate this party so fudging much.

 

[AdrienIer]

What the democratic leadership wants is a one party rule, with them (and people they like) at the top. You can't really blame them for wanting that. On the other hand, what the US needs is different voices. A party distinctly to the left, a party distinctly to the right (and if the US electoral system changes, other parties as well). There are two groups that can make that happen if they act simultaneously : the left wing of the democratic party needs to grow so strong in the party that it forces the democratic leadership to accept being left wing, and the republican party needs to stop being so far right (and rebrand even if it takes a while).

The necessary first step for that to happen is a landslide for Biden followed by pushback by the left over his centrist policies leaving open a window for the republicans if they accept not being as racist and religiously fanatic as they currently are.

 

[sophie]

What the democratic leadership wants is a one party rule, with them (and people they like) at the top. You can't really blame them for wanting that.

Sure I can.

On the other hand, what the US needs is different voices.

Nope.

A party distinctly to the left, a party distinctly to the right (and if the US electoral system changes, other parties as well).

Nope.

There are two groups that can make that happen if they act simultaneously : the left wing of the democratic party needs to grow so strong in the party that it forces the democratic leadership to accept being left wing, and the republican party needs to stop being so far right (and rebrand even if it takes a while). The necessary first step for that to happen is a landslide for Biden followed by pushback by the left over his centrist policies leaving open a window for the republicans if they accept not being as racist and religiously fanatic as they currently are.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, you are.

No, I'm not. I was trying to recall if that was the expression, and I was disagreeing with that expression. I just can't think of why we're taking a horse into the river. Should'a paid that helpful Indian the five bucks.

It didn't? Since when?

Since forever.

 

[AdrienIer]

A party distinctly to the left, a party distinctly to the right (and if the US electoral system changes, other parties as well).

Nope.

The right in the US isn't going to disappear overnight. Either it's going to be opposed by a big centrist party, or by a big party distinctly to the left. I'd rather that party be as far to the left as possible while being viable in the political environment of the 2020s and 2030s.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Should'a paid that helpful Indian the five bucks.

It wasn't horses it was oxen. And I was a farmer, so I didn't have any money left. I just had to ford it.

Still not sure why you asked if you were mixing things up if you were clear on the expression and disagreeing with it, but whateves. Its all clear now.

Just profoundly cursed ****. I hate this party so ******* much.

My understanding is that they are going to have multiple Republican speakers for the virtual DNC coming up. Just makes it clear that they think Biden can appeal to disaffected Republicans and conservative moderates.

Biden is back over 50% according to RCP, but Trump has been gaining and is now over 42%. I am still a little flabbergasted that there would still be this many people claiming to be "undecided" at this point. I mean... what are you undecided about?​

 

[Commodore]

I am still a little flabbergasted that there would still be this many people claiming to be "undecided" at this point. I mean... what are you undecided about

A lot. I think a lot of people out there are just tired of this whole dog and pony show and have realized that their lives never seem to get any better no matter who they vote for. I also think those polls mark down people who adamantly declare they aren't voting for either one as "undecided". Wouldn't be surprised if they did that with third party voters too. After all, gotta keep playing up that Republican/Democrat dichotomy right?

I mean, I'm one of those "undecided" voters because quite frankly I don't believe either Trump or Biden will give me what I want or act in my best interest and I'm tired of compromising on the "lesser evil". Makes me wonder what this nation would look like if people stopped compromising on their principles and votes for what they really want. Maybe things would be better, maybe worse but we'll never know because there are still too many spineless voters.

 

[sophie]

Biden is back over 50% according to RCP, but Trump has been gaining and is now over 42%. I am still a little flabbergasted that there would still be this many people claiming to be "undecided" at this point. I mean... what are you undecided about?

Why would I vote for a man and a party who, at every opportunity, have made it exceedingly clear they don't want me? Who hold me in utter contempt and aren't interested in even entertaining the very real problems I and people like me are experiencing every day, let alone addressing them or proposing solutions to them. Why would I vote for a man who was the principal cause of the vast majority of those very real problems, and who has not only shown zero remorse for those actions, but openly touts them as the cornerstone of his legacy? Why would I vote for a man and a party who have signaled repeatedly that, not only are they opposed to the issues that matter most deeply to me, but that, should they be elected, will do everything within their power to ensure those issues never see the light of day? Why would I vote for a man who has explicitly and publicly stated that he would see me and people like me arrested for our political beliefs? That is why I am still undecided on this, leaning further towards "nah" with every day. Donald Trump is an obvious evil who must be denied a second term. Most people can see that. The problem is the Democrats make it very difficult to get on board with that mission when they're the ones driving the bus.

And if you're going to levy a "it's a binary choice" or "harm reduction" response at me, you can go ahead and miss me with that. I really don't care, because:

a) Frankly, I no longer think a harm reduction argument is tenable when Biden has signaled that if elected he will oversee a successful coup in Venezuela, he will be more antagonistic towards China and Russia, he won't change course in Israel, and, given his record, a war with Iran isn't off the table either. Trump is by no means a dove, but he's cowardly and feckless in a way that Biden isn't. Biden is, in my opinion, far worse in regards to global violence and advancing the international socialist project. And because, again, he's literally said he'll arrest me and people like me.

b) Individual voter choices are completely meaningless in an election. My individual vote is not going to matter. My individual vote is never going to matter. What matters is campaign strategy, political organizing, and coalition building, i.e. structures. Shaming me is doesn't change anything in that respect, and while I can't speak specifically to why large segments of the population seem undecided on what should be an obvious issue, I can tell you why I am, at this point, not voting for Biden in the general.

Like, why on earth would I vote for this? Why would anybody vote for this? We aren't even 2 months out from the election yet and he's already pre-emptively signaling he'll sell poor and working folks like me down the river. Like, what the fudge? Why do libs always act so surprised when they find out nobody wants to vote for them, when they explicitly tell us all the time this is what we'd be voting for.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I mean, I'm one of those "undecided" voters because quite frankly I don't believe either Trump or Biden will give me what I want or act in my best interest

If you can not decide between the primary proposal (Biden or Trump); I suggest you consider the secondary proposal (Harris or Pence);
particularly because the primary contenders' ages mean it is doubtful if either would, in any meaningful sense, last the full four years.

 

[Sommerswerd]

A lot. I think a lot of people out there are just tired of this whole dog and pony show and have realized that their lives never seem to get any better no matter who they vote for. I also think those polls mark down people who adamantly declare they aren't voting for either one as "undecided". Wouldn't be surprised if they did that with third party voters too. After all, gotta keep playing up that Republican/Democrat dichotomy right?

You misunderstand me. I get that. And as far as I'm concerned, people who have decided that they aren't voting for either Biden or Trump aren't by any means "undecided". I don't consider people who have already decided not to vote as "undecided" either, nor do I consider people who have decided to vote third party as "undecided". I'm strictly talking about the people who have decided to vote for either Trump or Biden, but they still claim to be undecided as to which one. That's the head scratcher for me. Sorry for not spelling that out more explicitly.

I mean, I'm one of those "undecided" voters because quite frankly I don't believe either Trump or Biden will give me what I want or act in my best interest and I'm tired of compromising on the "lesser evil". Makes me wonder what this nation would look like if people stopped compromising on their principles and votes for what they really want. Maybe things would be better, maybe worse but we'll never know because there are still too many spineless voters.

Now this is more along the lines of what I was getting at. Are you saying that you are definitely going to pick the "lesser evil" but you are still struggling with which one is the actual lesser evil? Or are you saying you know which one you consider the lesser evil and what you're actually still trying to decide whether you are going to vote for them, or just go third party, or not vote? Because those are profoundly different things.

Why would I vote for a man and a party who, at every opportunity, have made it exceedingly clear they don't want me? Who hold me in utter contempt and aren't interested in even entertaining the very real problems I and people like me are experience every day, let alone addressing them or proposing solutions to them. Why would I vote for a man who was the principal cause of the vast majority of those very real problems, and who has not only shown zero remorse for those actions, but openly touts them as the cornerstone of his legacy? Why would I vote for a man and a party who have signaled repeatedly that, not only are they opposed to the issues that matter most deeply to me, but that, should they be elected, will do everything within their power to ensure those issues never see the light of day? Why would I vote for a man who has explicitly and publicly stated that he would see me and people like me arrested for our political beliefs? That is why I am still undecided on this, leaning further towards "nah" with every day. Donald Trump is an obvious evil who must be denied a second term. Most people can see that. The problem is the Democrats make it very difficult to get on board with that mission when they're the ones driving the bus.

And if you're going to levy a "it's a binary choice" or "harm reduction" response at me, you can go ahead and miss me with that. I really don't care, because:

a) Frankly, I no longer think a harm reduction argument is tenable when Biden has signaled that if elected he will oversee a successful coup in Venezuela, he will be more antagonistic towards China and Russia, he won't change course in Israel, and, given his record, a war with Iran isn't off the table either. Trump is by no means a dove, but he's cowardly and feckless in a way that Biden isn't. Biden is, in my opinion, far worse in regards to global violence and advancing the international socialist project. And because, again, he's literally said he'll arrest me and people like me.

b) Individual voter choices are completely meaningless in an election. My individual vote is not going to matter. My individual vote is never going to matter. What matters is campaign strategy, political organizing, and coalition building, i.e. structures. Shaming me is doesn't change anything in that respect, and while I can't speak specifically to why large segments of the population seem undecided on what should be an obvious issue, I can tell you why I am, at this point, not voting for Biden in the general.

Like, why on earth would I vote for this? Why would anybody vote for this? We aren't even 2 months out from the election yet and he's already pre-emptively signaling he'll sell poor and working folks like me down the river. Like, what the fudge? Why do libs always act so surprised when they find out nobody wants to vote for them, when they explicitly tell us all the time this is what we'd be voting for.

See this reaction lets me know that I did a poor job explaining my feelings in the last post. So that's my fault. Like Commodore above, you misunderstand me. I'm not trying to convince you of jack squat. I don't gaf who you vote for or if you vote. I'm not trying to "shame you" into anything.

I generally share @Commodore 's view, that it is the responsibility of the candidates to convince people to vote for them, and if they fail to do so its their fault when they lose. Frankly your (and others') beefs with Biden are legit and if you can't bring yourself to vote for him I respect your decision. I don't like Biden as a candidate either. My decision is that I'm gonna vote for him anyway, but that's my choice, you don't owe it to me or anyone else to vote for Biden just because I'm choosing to.

My point is, you've made a decision. Again, I'm confounded specifically by the folks who know that they are going to vote for either Trump or Biden, but are still genuinely unable to pick which one. That's clearly not you. As an aside, even though that part of my post wasn't really directed at you, I'm glad you had a chance to get that off your chest anyway.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm strictly talking about the people who have decided to vote for either Trump or Biden, but they still are undecided as to which one.

(minor edit signifies what I originally thought you wrote). Those must be some really scary people...

 

[r16]

with Biden , America is predictable .

with Trump , America is unpredictable . ı respect the opinions of many who have decided that they are fed up with the system or the need to vote for the lesser evil . But withour "your" vote , the majority will be less and drops make into oceans when they add up . You must consider why every major vote in New Turkey tends to happen when middle classes are about to have a summer holiday ...

 

[Yeekim]

I'm feeling genuinely sorry for American voters...

 

[Commodore]

You misunderstand me. I get that. And as far as I'm concerned, people who have decided that they aren't voting for either Biden or Trump aren't by any means "undecided". I don't consider people who have already decided not to vote as "undecided" either, nor do I consider people who have decided to vote third party as "undecided". I'm strictly talking about the people who have decided to vote for either Trump or Biden, but they still claim to be undecided as to which one. That's the head scratcher for me. Sorry for not spelling that out more explicitly

That part of my post was more of a rant against pollsters rather than against you directly.

Now this is more along the lines of what I was getting at. Are you saying that you are definitely going to pick the "lesser evil" but you are still struggling with which one is the actual lesser evil? Or are you saying you know which one you consider the lesser evil and what you're actually still trying to decide whether you are going to vote for them, or just go third party, or not vote? Because those are profoundly different things

Closer to the latter, but that doesn't quite nail my sentiment. Basically, it doesn't matter who the lesser evil is for me because a lesser evil is still evil and I'm tired of voting for evil. Nothing changes if the lesser evils keep winning because then the good ones never even get a chance to be heard.

 

[Samson]

Nothing changes if the lesser evils keep winning because then the good ones never even get a chance to be heard.

What can you do to increase the chance of the good ones getting heard? I used to spoil my ballot, in the hope that enough of that would be taken as "None of the above", but then I decided that was pointless and have voted for the lesser evil for most of my life.

 

[Takhisis]

John Kasich as in the John Kasich who stood for US president for the GOP last election? Are we witnessing yet another shift of the Overton window towards the extreme(r) right, coupled with entryism?