2020 US Election (Part Two)

[innonimatu]

Ah right, Tito.

Still, that one's a bit of a complex example, as I can't help but feel Patine is rather ironically relying on general negative stereotypes and labels of "communism" to slander people in this thread. I guess it's okay when Comrade Patine does it though

Considering what the fascists had been doing in Yugoslavia during WW2, wanting to kill them all the murderers and repressing their enablers and supporters wasn't unreasonable at all. The ustashe (and the others in other puppet states) didn't exist in a void, they had a basis of popular support, and there was no stopping them without what Patine called a "witch hunt". Just as there was no defeating nazi Germany without crushing it on the battlefield and occupying it militarily. Yugoslavia specifically is a very bad example indeed because the level of atrocities done by the fascists there was horrendous. And widespread.

Tito, if anything, was moderate and closed the war chapter rather fast after killing off the worst of the lot in Slovenia. Even the western allies returned them rather that protect that bunch!

 

[Zardnaar]

Considering what the fascists had been doing in Yugoslavia during WW2, wanting to kill them all the murderers and repressing their enablers and supporters wasn't unreasonable at all. The ustashe (and the others in other puppet states) didn't exist in a void, they had a basis of popular support, and there was no stopping them without what Patine called a "witch hunt". Just as there was no defeating nazi Germany without crushing it on the battlefield and occupying it militarily. Yugoslavia specifically is a very bad example indeed because the level of atrocities done by the fascists there was horrendous. And widespread.

Tito, if anything, was moderate and closed the war chapter rather fast after killing off the worst of the lot in Slovenia. Even the western allies returned them rather that protect that bunch!

You know it's bad when rhe Croatians managed to offend the Nazis.

 

[amadeus]

I don't think he really has much policy idea, and that's a major complaint from people who were close to him.

I think he did (look at his book from 2000) but he’s just given up the ship for some reason. Too bad, because he did have some decent ideas.

 

[sendos]

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

I just wonder how many Americans will hold Trump accountable for his stuff-up on COVID-19? Sure, he did not want to cause a panic and wanted to be upbeat, but he could have achieved that anyway while being proactive on COVID-19. I always check the COVID-19 case numbers and I see that daily cases in the US are dropping down a bit. They're still high of course. This may suggest most Americans might not give a damn about his handling of COVID-19. The recent riots won't sway the outcome either way.

Now we have tape recording proof that Trump will lie to the American people as a means to an end, as shown on his earlier stance on COVID-19. He knew it was bad and was not a flu and then told the public it was no worse than a flu. We have a US President who has committed a bigger lie than Bill Clinton, and Bill Clinton was almost impeached for his lie. But no, please lecture me on how Trump tells it like it is. People conflate candid and transparent behaviour with honesty all the time and vice versa for opaque, it's just not funny anymore.

Meanwhile, Biden is being way too cautious and hidden. Trump knows this so he doesn't need to attack Biden all the time because people don't know him that much, even though he was Obama's Vice President. As opposed to Hilary Clinton, a lot of Americans knew her for over 20 years, so Trump's strategy was to utterly destroy her character to smithereens whatever information he had, truth or otherwise.

Let's also not forget Trump has actually been wanting to run for office for the past 30 or so years. He just picked his time perfectly. He even had a loyal fan base back then as well.

 

[Patine]

Considering what the fascists had been doing in Yugoslavia during WW2, wanting to kill them all the murderers and repressing their enablers and supporters wasn't unreasonable at all. The ustashe (and the others in other puppet states) didn't exist in a void, they had a basis of popular support, and there was no stopping them without what Patine called a "witch hunt". Just as there was no defeating nazi Germany without crushing it on the battlefield and occupying it militarily. Yugoslavia specifically is a very bad example indeed because the level of atrocities done by the fascists there was horrendous. And widespread.

Tito, if anything, was moderate and closed the war chapter rather fast after killing off the worst of the lot in Slovenia. Even the western allies returned them rather that protect that bunch!

Well, yes, but witch-hunting tactics only made the Yugoslav Communists as bad as those they were reacting to in that particular way (as does any group that resorts to reactionary witch-hunting - period). Plus, the Fascists in Yugoslavia and the rest of Eastern Europe - who were REAL Fascists, ideologically and in action and deed - were a far, far greater scourge and wave of inhumanity and horror than the much more, by COMPARISON, limp, limited, and listless - and without a coherent, unified vision or platform - Trumpists of the modern U.S., despite the hyperbolic, dystopian, Gothic horror (and utterly incredulous) narratives as well as the "Minority Report," indictments that "they just haven't had a chance to do these things, yet."

 

[amadeus]

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

I would agree with this 100%.

I think Trump too is a product of his time, a post-Cold warrior that got blindsided by the “globalized” world. With the Soviet Union gone, what was America’s purpose? H.W. Bush thought it was the “New World Order,” not the conspiracy one, but one where a united civilized world would collectively act against rouge states and there would be a lasting peace and prosperity. Oops!

Clinton carried on the Bush quasi-Wilsonianism and we bombed Yugoslavia for some reason. Gotta bomb something, right?

W. Bush comes along and 9/11 throws the whole thing off. Now we know what to do: stop Islamic fundamentalism and spread democracy through the Arab world* (offer not valid in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Egypt or Libya.) Oops x2!

Obama then half-heartedly both continues the Bush policy ala Clinton: lob a few rockets at their tents and call it a day. But this time, there’s a pivot! A Pivot to Asia! Which materialized in... uh, pivoting. Not much to say there.

So in comes Trump the Cheerleader. We’ll be No. 1 again! Eisenhower! Victory! Apple pie! And it all works well until it doesn’t. Oops x3!

Don’t worry, though—Biden is on his way! The tenacity of his soul is matched only by the hairiness of his legs. Oops?

 

[Estebonrober]

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

I just wonder how many Americans will hold Trump accountable for his stuff-up on COVID-19? Sure, he did not want to cause a panic and wanted to be upbeat, but he could have achieved that anyway while being proactive on COVID-19. I always check the COVID-19 case numbers and I see that daily cases in the US are dropping down a bit. They're still high of course. This may suggest most Americans might not give a damn about his handling of COVID-19. The recent riots won't sway the outcome either way.

Now we have tape recording proof that Trump will lie to the American people as a means to an end, as shown on his earlier stance on COVID-19. He knew it was bad and was not a flu and then told the public it was no worse than a flu. We have a US President who has committed a bigger lie than Bill Clinton, and Bill Clinton was almost impeached for his lie. But no, please lecture me on how Trump tells it like it is. People conflate candid and transparent behaviour with honesty all the time and vice versa for opaque, it's just not funny anymore.

Meanwhile, Biden is being way too cautious and hidden. Trump knows this so he doesn't need to attack Biden all the time because people don't know him that much, even though he was Obama's Vice President. As opposed to Hilary Clinton, a lot of Americans knew her for over 20 years, so Trump's strategy was to utterly destroy her character to smithereens whatever information he had, truth or otherwise.

Let's also not forget Trump has actually been wanting to run for office for the past 30 or so years. He just picked his time perfectly. He even had a loyal fan base back then as well.

I pretty much don't agree with any of this except the Clinton/Biden part.

 

[Zardnaar]

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

I just wonder how many Americans will hold Trump accountable for his stuff-up on COVID-19? Sure, he did not want to cause a panic and wanted to be upbeat, but he could have achieved that anyway while being proactive on COVID-19. I always check the COVID-19 case numbers and I see that daily cases in the US are dropping down a bit. They're still high of course. This may suggest most Americans might not give a damn about his handling of COVID-19. The recent riots won't sway the outcome either way.

Now we have tape recording proof that Trump will lie to the American people as a means to an end, as shown on his earlier stance on COVID-19. He knew it was bad and was not a flu and then told the public it was no worse than a flu. We have a US President who has committed a bigger lie than Bill Clinton, and Bill Clinton was almost impeached for his lie. But no, please lecture me on how Trump tells it like it is. People conflate candid and transparent behaviour with honesty all the time and vice versa for opaque, it's just not funny anymore.

Meanwhile, Biden is being way too cautious and hidden. Trump knows this so he doesn't need to attack Biden all the time because people don't know him that much, even though he was Obama's Vice President. As opposed to Hilary Clinton, a lot of Americans knew her for over 20 years, so Trump's strategy was to utterly destroy her character to smithereens whatever information he had, truth or otherwise.

Let's also not forget Trump has actually been wanting to run for office for the past 30 or so years. He just picked his time perfectly. He even had a loyal fan base back then as well.

He's on tape about Covid?

Link?

Context not doubtful just wanna see it.

 

[Takhisis]

This could be because "international disgrace" is used by those
annoyed that they won't just do what other countries tell them to do.

I think it has more to do with being totally self centered.

Right.

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

Sssssssort of. Trump's economic policies are the equivalent of setting your house on fire to keep away the cold in early autumn.

 

[Estebonrober]

I think the only defense is for everyone doing mail-in ballots to announce on social media that they're doing so, to start creating the expectation that we won't know until later. So that everyone knows someone who mailed in a ballot

Recounts matter if it's a close race, it might happen. Trump agitating for widespread discontent the evening of Election Day WILL happen.

The problem is its going to be close in certain states that matter until after the mail in votes come and Trump is almost certainly going to declare victory during that wait

 

[amadeus]

@Zardnaar

From Fox. It’s the shortest video I could find that includes the audio. The rest are all ten minutes of Seth Meyers (barf) or someone from TYT/HuffPost trying to increase the monetization time on the video.

Audio starts around :55

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar

From Fox. It’s the shortest video I could find that includes the audio. The rest are all ten minutes of Seth Meyers (barf) or someone from TYT/HuffPost trying to increase the monetization time on the video.

Audio starts around :55

Is this just breaking news?

 

[El_Machinae]

The problem is its going to be close in certain states that matter until after the mail in votes come and Trump is almost certainly going to declare victory during that wait

I recognize the problem: I think the only real defense is getting people who vote (R) by mail to tell all their social circle that they voted by mail. Trump is trying to Overton things over so that the 'mail delay' is a sign of fraud. But if every (R) knows someone whose (R) vote was mailed ... then the normal zeitgeist will be that the mail delay is 'normal'. People need to be prepared for the delay, and that means that (R) voters have to push back against Trump's attempt to make people afraid of the delay.

 

[amadeus]

Is this just breaking news?

I think it came out last week.

 

[El_Machinae]

Trump in May: "On January 23, I was told that there could be a virus coming in but it was of no real import. In other words it wasn't, 'Oh we gotta do something, we gotta do something.' It was a brief conversation and it was only on January 23,"

Two days later, January 25, Beijing declared a state of emergency, haha.

 

[Zkribbler]

If it were not for COVID-19, Trump would win this election hands down because America was doing just fine, especially on the economy.

America had the illusion of doing just fine because of Trump's massive borrowing. He continues his tradition of driving his companies into bankruptcy and sticking others will the bill.

Trump cares nothing about the American people. Millions were losing their affordable healthcare. Higher education was becoming unaffordable. Police violence was lighting the fuse to a racial explosion. Climate change was rushing towards a global meltdown. I see today that Trump has been pilfering millions from the funds designated by Congress to help 9-11 first-responders with their medical expenses. He lauds white supremacists and foreign dictators.

 

[Estebonrober]

I mean he was impeached and won initially having lost pretty handily the popular vote and that was against one of the worst candidates the dems could have nominated for the far left and the center. He was never popular and is much less so now.

 

[cardgame]

I could count all the good things Trump has done on one hand, the bad things would fill the remaining space on my SSDs

didn't he promise infrastructure building and repair? america's crumbling infra was supposed to be made great again, and that's a good thing (provided it isn't corrupted in typical Trump fashion like that Puerto Rico rebuild contract that was given to people who were objectively incapable of doing the job) but I have never heard one peep about this from any source.

 

[Patine]

I would agree with this 100%.

I think Trump too is a product of his time, a post-Cold warrior that got blindsided by the “globalized” world. With the Soviet Union gone, what was America’s purpose? H.W. Bush thought it was the “New World Order,” not the conspiracy one, but one where a united civilized world would collectively act against rouge states and there would be a lasting peace and prosperity. Oops!

Clinton carried on the Bush quasi-Wilsonianism and we bombed Yugoslavia for some reason. Gotta bomb something, right?

W. Bush comes along and 9/11 throws the whole thing off. Now we know what to do: stop Islamic fundamentalism and spread democracy through the Arab world* (offer not valid in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Egypt or Libya.) Oops x2!

Obama then half-heartedly both continues the Bush policy ala Clinton: lob a few rockets at their tents and call it a day. But this time, there’s a pivot! A Pivot to Asia! Which materialized in... uh, pivoting. Not much to say there.

So in comes Trump the Cheerleader. We’ll be No. 1 again! Eisenhower! Victory! Apple pie! And it all works well until it doesn’t. Oops x3!

Don’t worry, though—Biden is on his way! The tenacity of his soul is matched only by the hairiness of his legs. Oops?

I pretty much don't agree with any of this except the Clinton/Biden part.

Actually, I agree, mostly, with this narrative (despite it's broad and light-hearted phrasing), except for the fact you, @amadeus are being too generous and soft on Obama's complicent hand in the great crimes of post-Cold War American foreign and military policy, and I don't think you've quite nailed Trump's cliché regarding it - because, as I've said several times, Trumpism, by nature, has no platform or unifying vision or coherence to it, it's merely a style of campaigning, responding, pronouncing, and public appearance mixed with a tenor and atmosphere created. I'm also not sure why you so fervently disagree with most of it, @Estebonrober, unless you're a supporter of that style of foreign and military policy, of course.

 

[Estebonrober]

Actually, I agree, mostly, with this narrative (despite it's broad and light-hearted phrasing), except for the fact you, @amadeus are being too generous and soft on Obama's complicent hand in the great crimes of post-Cold War American foreign and military policy, and I don't think you've quite nailed Trump's cliché regarding it - because, as I've said several times, Trumpism, by nature, has no platform or unifying vision or coherence to it, it's merely a style of campaigning, responding, pronouncing, and public appearance mixed with a tenor and atmosphere created. I'm also not sure why you so fervently disagree with most of it, @Estebonrober, unless you're a supporter of that style of foreign and military policy, of course.

I didn't quote @amadeus. I don't have an opinion one way or another about his post cold war take honestly except that Trump spouts that stuff but brings none of the prosperity for the working class, jsut the racial animus