2020 US Election (Part One)

Status
Not open for further replies.
But they were lying about a non-crime, what justice was obstructed? .
Obstruction itself is a crime and Trump and his minions, at his direction, lied about obstruction. Nevertheless, an underlying crime is not an element for obstruction of justice. Clinton got hit for obstruction of justice for allegedly lying in a civil deposition. Certainly no underlying crime in relations with a twenty-something intern. Thanks be to God.

What Trump was covering up with in his obstruction was a legitimate investigation into crimes by a foreign power and several Trump associates who either plead or were found guilty.
 
To whit:

Mueller Report, Introduction to Volume II
First, a traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to initiate or decline a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) has issued an opinion finding that "the indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions" in violation of "the constitutional separation of powers."1 Given the role of the Special Counsel as an attorney in the Department of Justice and the framework of the Special Counsel regulations, see 28 U.S.C. § 515; 28 C.F.R. § 600.7(a), this Office accepted OLC's legal conclusion for the purpose of exercising prosecutorial jurisdiction. And apart from OLC's constitutional view, we recognized that a federal criminal accusation against a sitting President would place burdens on the President's capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct.

Second, while the OLC opinion concludes that a sitting President may not be prosecuted, it recognizes that a criminal investigation during the President's term is permissible. 3 The OLC opinion also recognizes that a President does not have immunity after he leaves office.4 And if individuals other than the President committed an obstruction offense, they may be prosecuted at this time. Given those considerations, the facts known to us, and the strong public interest in safeguarding the integrity of the criminal justice system, we conducted a thorough factual investigation in order to preserve the evidence when memories were fresh and documentary materials were available.

Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. The threshold step under the Justice Manual standards is to assess whether a person's conduct "constitutes a federal offense." U.S. Dep't of Justice, Justice Manual§ 9-27.220 (2018) (Justice Manual). Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be brought. The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor's judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator. 5

The concerns about the fairness of such a determination would be heightened in the case of a sitting President, where a federal prosecutor's accusation of a crime, even in an internal report, could carry consequences that extend beyond the realm of criminal justice. OLC noted similar concerns about sealed indictments. Even if an indictment were sealed during the President's term, OLC reasoned, "it would be very difficult to preserve [an indictment's] secrecy," and if an indictment became public, "[t]he stigma and opprobrium" could imperil the President's ability to govern."6 Although a prosecutor's internal report would not represent a formal public accusation akin to an indictment, the possibility of the report's public disclosure and the absence of a neutral adjudicatory forum to review its findings counseled against potentially determining "that the person's conduct constitutes a federal offense." Justice Manual § 9-27.220.

Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
 
If Mueller is the doctor, he, like many doctors, is limited to pointing out the severe illness of the patient. Congress is the insurance company with the power to decide what to do about it.

WTF. This is the most frighteningly American thing I've ever read. It's truly shocking that this is an actual thing that doctors do there.
 
If that is the mainstream interpretation, it could not be more wrong.

To use your analogy, Mueller is the Doctor. It's his job to recommend medication, so declining to do so says a great deal. In this case, we also have a pill happy, over-proscribing Doctor who thinks drugs solve all problems, declining to proscribe.

Can you cite anything that says that Mueller would have brought charges forward? As I said, this seems to be the divide.

I understand my analogy. You think that Mueller would have brought charges if he thought a crime had been committed. Why do you think this?
 
From Peggy Noonan today on US divisive politics

We are like Chang and Eng, the 19th century Siamese Twin brothers who worked for P.T. Barnum. They could not be separated and went through their long lives together, married to different women, living in different houses—a few days a week in this one, a few in another.

It wasn’t easy for them to walk through life together, but they did. We have to, too.
 
WTF. This is the most frighteningly American thing I've ever read. It's truly shocking that this is an actual thing that doctors do there.

Praise be to the Mar'qet; it demands the blood of humans to satisfy its thirst
 
What? If there is a question in there, please clarify what you want to know.

Fun could be exactly how it started. Trump made serious noises about running in 2008 and started up again after the 2012 election. A bunch of Intel wonks started discussing him over drinks and decide to pull together whatever is within easy reach. If nothing else, the Donald is entertaining to watch. After that, it's a topic for discussion and new tidbits are prized. Since it's not a real investigation, no one is paying a lot of attention to the rules. At some point, possibly weeks or months later, someone starts a file and things grew from there. This is all speculation, but it explains why so far along that they could set a honey trap for Papadopoulos in July of 2016 when most claim the investigation began. Names like Joseph Misfud and Steven Halpern crop up, though chances are that your casual NTY reader or CNN watcher never heard them.

What we know is that James Comey was investigating Trump for no reason that he has ever been able or willing to show. That is why AG Barr is talking about the origins of the investigation. That is why some think that James Comey may go to prison, see below. It may have started as water cooler small talk, but it turned into a massive invasion of privacy.


In that case, just to be clear, decisions about prosecuting the President is Mueller's only job. So, your paraphrase is not just misleading, it's completely backward.

You are also paraphrasing Barr. He's more careful with his words.

J

Very simple, if the IG finds the investigation had some merit would you concede then, FINALLY, that Trump obstructed justice and should be impeached for trying to do so? I'm pretty sure I see a straw man being beat soon, or just a total diversionary tactic coming.
 
WTF. This is the most frighteningly American thing I've ever read. It's truly shocking that this is an actual thing that doctors do there.
Why do you think that healthcare is still an election issue?
 
"I'm gonna send my lawyer to Ukraine to find out something on Joe Biden's son, I mean they're doing this in plain sight... in real time. We're going to a foreign country to see if they will help us get dirt on who may be our potential candidate and we're acting like there's something normal about this?" - Al Sharpton

That was his outraged response to the news Rudy Giuliani was heading for Ukraine to investigate an alleged relationship between Joe Biden's son and a Ukrainian 'oligarch'. Hillary Clinton paid people to get dirt from Russia on her opponent and the Reverend defended it, now he casts stones.
 
"I'm gonna send my lawyer to Ukraine to find out something on Joe Biden's son, I mean they're doing this in plain sight... in real time. We're going to a foreign country to see if they will help us get dirt on who may be our potential candidate and we're acting like there's something normal about this?" - Al Sharpton

That was his outraged response to the news Rudy Giuliani was heading for Ukraine to investigate an alleged relationship between Joe Biden's son and a Ukrainian 'oligarch'. Hillary Clinton paid people to get dirt from Russia on her opponent and the Reverend defended it, now he casts stones.

Clinton paid a British citizen right? I mean it is still a foreign national, but he is an actual investigator. Furthermore he was not pressuring Russian officials or any government officials anywhere to pursue Trump or his family in corruption charges and such (there is no shortage of that with the Trumps mind you https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal). It seems to be a different level of foreign interference. I'm open to a law getting rid of all this though. No foreign agents, no foreign think tank involvement, no PACs, and a constitutional amendment over riding citizens united would be a good idea.
 
If Mueller is the doctor, he, like many doctors, is limited to pointing out the severe illness of the patient. Congress is the insurance company with the power to decide what to do about it.

Trump said we could keep our doctor, but then tried to fire him behind the scenes.
LOL

That's rich. When have Doctors ever deferred to anyone, much less insurance companies?

Recommending prosecution is their only job. That they refused to do it says that they are not concerned with the law but with the politics. Haters gotta hate and these are Trump haters.

WTF. This is the most frighteningly American thing I've ever read. It's truly shocking that this is an actual thing that doctors do there.
Be consoled. It's only his sarcasm misfiring.

Sigh, I've called you out on this falsehood so many times. :deadhorse: You can ride a dead horse, but it won't take you anywhere. :rolleyes:
Tell that to the people trying ride the Mueller report.

BTW It isn't false but no one cares.

J
 
Last edited:
Clinton paid a British citizen right? I mean it is still a foreign national, but he is an actual investigator. Furthermore he was not pressuring Russian officials or any government officials anywhere to pursue Trump or his family in corruption charges and such (there is no shortage of that with the Trumps mind you https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal). It seems to be a different level of foreign interference. I'm open to a law getting rid of all this though. No foreign agents, no foreign think tank involvement, no PACs, and a constitutional amendment over riding citizens united would be a good idea.

Yes... The Clinton campaign paid a NYC law firm which paid Fusion. Apparently Fusion hired Christopher Steele (former British MI6 agent) for his expertise on Russia. He used his contacts in Russia etc to compile a laundry list ("dossier") of alleged sins and leaked it to both the media and FBI before the election to defeat Trump. The irony in all this is the emails wikileaked didn't contain fabrications but the Steele Dossier did. The Russians exposed actual DNC corruption and the Democrats fed lies and rumors to media and law enforcement to fuel an investigation of their political opponents.
 
From Peggy Noonan today on US divisive politics

No, we don't.

While the times when the US has been divided have been rather far and between :Federalists and Non-Federalists, Abolition, the Civil Rights Era, now, a few others in between: eventually it's time to call the situation as is. When the government doesn't do its damn job out of some misguided civility or outright cowardice, when each side just undoes whatever the other does when they flip in and out of power ad infinitum, it's time to press for change or call it quits. There's no law of universe saying the US had to be, or has to always be. Start a few referendums, a few colour movements, and the US can wither and break apart like anyone else.
 
Recommending prosecution is their only job. That they refused to do it says that they are not concerned with the law but with the politics.
Mueller clearly explains why this decision was made and defers to a viewpoint that is based upon the separation of powers.

That is nothing to do with politics and you are being extremely disingenuous.
 
Mueller clearly explains why this decision was made and defers to a viewpoint that is based upon the separation of powers. That is nothing to do with politics and you are being extremely disingenuous.
It has only to do with politics. From a letter of WH counsel Emmit Flood to AG Barr. SCO is Special Counsel's Office.

The SCO Report was legally defective when it stated that “evidence on the obstruction question prevented it from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.” Conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred was NOT the assigned task of the SCO; especially in the American justice system where innocence is presumed and federal prosecutors are NEVER required to prove it.

The SCO failed to do its one and only job with regard to the obstruction question — “provide the Attorney General with a confidential report explaining the prosecution or declination decisions reached by the Special Counsel.” It did neither. Instead, it “transmitted a 182-page discussion of raw evidentiary material combined with its own inconclusive observations that will never be subjected to adversarial testing or independent analysis.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...te-house-counsel-emmet-flood-ag-barr-n1001286

J
 
... From a letter of WH counsel Emmit Flood to AG Barr.
<<< Here is the problem with your post. Emmet Flood wrote a letter to support his boss. What he says was in support of Trump. Do you accept all letters written by any WH counsel to be gospel?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom