A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[sophie]

That sounds more like a mod trying to weave together various player ideas into a coherent narrative than some sort of "elites determining the story" type thing.

Not necessarily a mod, but certainly a group with a shared culture/geography. That's kind of the way it played out in TACNES (I?). Also STARNES. NESes where the players are asked to do a lot of the heavy lifting tend to play out like this out of expediency. Basically when narrative user-generated histories/backstories are contingent on other players you're going to have this a lot. You can either work within the framework to craft something wholly your own, collaborate with the others to ask them to rework their stories to help incorporate your own (assuming you haven't left it too late) or you can just roll with it and be unhappy. You most often see people subsumed into already existing frameworks when they're either a) late to the party and therefore missed the key opportunities for collaboration, or b) were lazy and left it to the last second and they're just left unhappy. This isn't to say NESes totally bar you from being creative, just that often in NESes the roleplaying and history of other players is heavily contingent on your roleplaying and history and therefore collaboration is necessitated. It's not that NESers want you to make yourself a slave to others' whims, just that you have to take into account both the direction other players want to go with your cradle and what other players have already established as canon in your cradle, not because NESers are dicks, but because historicity and at least some semblance of realism is important to the vast majority of NESers. It doesn't make sense for one enclave in the middle of Mexico to be totally and completely different from the rest of the region (unless you can come up with a plausible justification for it), and therefore for the sake of others you should probably find a way to make the already-established canon work with your own ideas.

 

[spaceman98]

I call on everyone to Assume Good Faith in this debate, instead of claiming that the other side has some sort of nefarrious hidden agenda behind their posts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

 

[Sonereal]

NESers think that they're good writers, and IOTers know that they aren't?

That's not how it works, yo. Reds are just as capable of residential/nativist modes of thought.

Anyway, all of this hemming and hawing is just convenient wheedling to decency, and dancing around the central notion that IOTers are "lesser" than NESers. You have to commend Luckymoose because, on this point, he does not hide his true intentions. He is utterly forthcoming about the disdain he holds for IOTers.

I can just taste the indignation in this post. I love it.

You just have to spend a little while in #nes to get a good taste of how NESers regard IOTers. It's almost universally negative. I know there are "exceptions" but these don't have any bearing on the atmosphere of the debate. But then you come into this thread and we get elaborate explanations about how these negative feelings are grounded in fact or reason.

I didn't respond immediatly last night to this thread since I figured the best policy would be to actually sleep on it. After all, nothing good comes from late night posting.

So I spent my evening doing other things. I read a bit of a book I started last week, played a video game for a bit, watched a little bit of Battlestar Galactica On Demand, that sort of thing, mulling over at what point would I become a person whose entire life could be summed up by the output I posted on an obscure internet board over the course of seven years.

I realized that, if I was to be that kind of person who finds my position on an internet board truly that meaningful, I would, personally, build a digital ivory tower and look down on all those uncivilized people below me having fun. Look at Jim over there, playing Civilization. Doesn't he know Victoria is so much sophisticated and better? Look at Bob over yonder playing Risk! Why isn't he writing several pages of roleplay to explain why he moved his army from the Ukraine to Western Russia? What a fool! What a naive, inferior fool!

And while I was up in this digital ivory tower, shouting insults down on those I believe below me from above, I would write page after page after page of arguments on the forum, justifying my viewpoint. Some dogs simply bark, and while those dogs share the tower with me, I can't muster the wherewithal to bark with them. Instead, I must be coy and mask my passive aggressive disdain for all those I put beneath me.

I reached that conclusion around eleven last night and spent the next hour watching Yu-Gi-Oh! Abridged. I realized that, like a children's card game, I would be making a big deal about what should simply be fun. However, it isn't enough to be fun, it has to be better. Better than something. I would have to become a defender of a game I play!

I would not only become the defender of the faith, I would become the voice, like the other barking dogs I share my tower with. Only then would I realize that I had meaning and purpose in the world.

It isn't enough to have fun. I must justify my fun by calling it art. I must look down on the fun of others by calling their fun less-than-art. Something savage and uncivilized and, while they are having fun, I must emphasis that games aren't about having fun. Games are serious business.

At first I thought you and Luckymoose were simply abrasive, but upon further inspection, I have come to the conclusion that you both are the saddest creations I have seen on this board.

I've seen towers built in IOT, but they tend to be shorter and closer to the earth. The tower you two built is quite remarkable, and the saddest part is that it was built on an internet forum over a genre of game that, while fun, isn't really that deep.

But don't feel sad. I've seen this already. NES isn't special, I've seen it before on AH.com in Shared Worlds. I've seen the some "voices of the forum" who don't participate or contribute anything to the main forum and build a wall between their community and neighboring communities. What happened to most of those voices?

They were banned. Repeatedly. Funny thing about AH.com, and it is that just because you've been here since 2006 doesn't mean you get a much longer leash than others. The only reason you two are still around, with all your negativity and all that goes with it, is because this board goes very easy on the old guard.

A pity, since I'm sure if you two were removed permanently from the board, the quality of posting in NES would improve greatly. The digital ivory towerers, the ones who decry the fun excesses of IOT and presumably other games, are the same ivory towerers who haven't had an original thought in two years and confuse everything they post with something called "art". I wonder how many new NESers had to conform to your expectations in order to be accepted by #NES, which apparently is also fairly representative of the community and all its players.

Oh well, I voted no on this poll yesterday anyway. I rather IOT get merged back into Forum Games that get itself caught in a community that believe games shouldn't be simply fun, they should be artsy and sophisticated.

Moderator Action: Infracted for flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Terrance888]

What a twisted, insane, pompous and utterly incorrect view you have, sir.

 

[Double A]

Also I don't really see how that applies to Crezth.

 

[Symphony D.]

Don't get me wrong, spryllino is nowhere near as vitriolic as Lucky, and I commend him for that. But he reiterates the same thinking that's so far been the crux of opposition to the merger: "We recognize that you can adapt, but we're convinced you won't, and don't want to give you the chance."

Here's the thing: in all this opposition, with the possible exception of Luckymoose, nobody has seriously floated banning or barring IOTers from joining NESes. There is literally nothing preventing an IOTer from joining a NES, or vice-versa. People from both can and do interact with the other. IOTers have all the chance in the world. They're right there, waiting to be seized. See a NES? Join it. Want to make a game? Click New Thread. It's just the NES forum is not interested in caving in to demands for a situation it doesn't want. People react poorly to being dictated to. This is that response in action.

I think it's pretty clear by now that at the pure, bare-bones, game-play level, NES and IOT are interchangeable, and what we're really arguing is a jingoist kultur kampf. And from the exchanges in this thread (not to mention my own dirty socialist outlook on life), this is why I think we need a merger: to foster a mutual understanding and long-term dialogue by which we may improve both communities.

Humans can and do enjoy forming cliques and interest groups and communities with particular outlooks and viewpoints. Not everyone is the same and most people like forming insular groups. This is not evil and not everyone should want to be friends in one big social group. Some people straddle multiple social groups. But it's not for everybody. If IOTers and NESers want to improve their image in the view of the other, they're gonna have to do it through action, not words, and forcing a situation on the other party will lead to nothing but resentment. This is not the equivalent of the American experience of desegregation or the Civil Rights Movement or something. Forcing the situation is not necessary to promote acceptance, people just need to stop acting entitled to having their demands met.

My question is: If the majority of NESers claim they won't play IOT but are happy to accept IOTers into NES, then how much further of a stretch is it really to host the games side-by-side? After all, if the cultures are supposedly so clearly identifiable, then surely we can let the players pick the one more suited to their play style?

Go do it then. And if it works, great. And if the communities draw closer together, then perhaps this discussion can be resumed at that time. But they're not very close now, and this is nothing but an exercise in forcing people to do things they don't want because certain people think they know better than everyone else. The entire premise, as the poll demonstrates, is antidemocratic.

 

[Sonereal]

Also I don't really see how that applies to Crezth.

It implies to a goodly few number of people, and this viewpoint is the reason why all of NES gets a bad rap not just with IOTers, but with many people others outside the whole thing. A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

I know a lot of good guys over on NES that I enjoy talking to, reading their material, etc. So I'm more or less annoyed that the image of elitism that NES has brought upon itself due a handful of users is the main reason some IOTers don't want the merge. Make no mistake, there are other, very good reasons, why no merge should happen, but "elitism" shouldn't be one of them because most NESers aren't actually like that.

What a twisted, insane, pompous and utterly incorrect view you have, sir.

This is a perfectly valid response, but unlike some people, I'm not saying that my views are representative of an entire group of users on this board. That wasn't an open letter written by several neckbeards behind monitors all over the country. It was just my views and opinions on the matter.

In the end, what happens merge wise is ultimately meaningless to me. I prefer it not, but I'm not going to cry if it happens. I learned to accept that there are a hundred important things in life, and IOT-NES isn't one of them. Enjoyable? Yes, but being a college student doesn't lend much time to old fashioned crusading on the ol' series of tubes anymore.

I don't expect either LM, whatshisface, or any other user who feels singled out in the post to care. Just because the post is long doesn't mean I spent a whole lot of time formulating a rough draft, going through a checklist of things to check for, double-checking the finer parts of the post, and posted it. Why? Because it really isn't a big deal and the fact there is fifteen pages of Serious Business (TM) to go along with this Not-A-Big-Deal when both sides would be better off tending to their own gardens just goes to show you just how bad a merger would be.

 

[Tsoate]

I don't understand why this is managing to generate so much debate when it clearly isn't going to happen.
People really do enjoy waving their e-peens around.
I still think should be settled in warfare.
I think a NES Vs. IOT Neptunes Pride would be EPIC.
I am more than willing to pay for a properly setup private game for this.​

 

[North King]

I don't expect either LM, whatshisface, or any other user who feels singled out in the post to care. Just because the post is long doesn't mean I spent a whole lot of time formulating a rough draft, going through a checklist of things to check for, double-checking the finer parts of the post, and posted it. Why? Because it really isn't a big deal and the fact there is fifteen pages of Serious Business (TM) to go along with this Not-A-Big-Deal when both sides would be better off tending to their own gardens just goes to show you just how bad a merger would be.

Actually, to some people it is srs bizness, and I think it's valid. My NES has been running for five years, and even outside that, I would say I'm extremely good friends with two or three people on the forum, not to mention a normal level of friendship with 5-10 others. Life in general is taken too seriously, but I do invest a significant absolute percentage of my life on CFC, and as a result I do like to take it more seriously than I do any old random game.

Not that it would be the end of the world if a merger happened -- but to some people it does matter. And that is undoubtedly some sad commentary on my life, but I'm not particularly bothered by that, either.

 

[Terrance888]

I am the Commander in the Night.

I am the Commander in the Day.

No matter what hour, what minute, my eyes are looking over my deployments.

I see everything you do, ser. And I can launch attacks when you blink.

Fear me.

 

[spaceman98]

May I suggest multiplayer RFC?

 

[hoplitejoe]

I thought we were doing quite well at not being rude to each other for a bit as well. I nominate tf2 for any MP game

 

[Wrymouth3]

I didn't respond immediatly last night to this thread since I figured the best policy would be to actually sleep on it. After all, nothing good comes from late night posting.

So I spent my evening doing other things. I read a bit of a book I started last week, played a video game for a bit, watched a little bit of Battlestar Galactica On Demand, that sort of thing, mulling over at what point would I become a person whose entire life could be summed up by the output I posted on an obscure internet board over the course of seven years.

I realized that, if I was to be that kind of person who finds my position on an internet board truly that meaningful, I would, personally, build a digital ivory tower and look down on all those uncivilized people below me having fun. Look at Jim over there, playing Civilization. Doesn't he know Victoria is so much sophisticated and better? Look at Bob over yonder playing Risk! Why isn't he writing several pages of roleplay to explain why he moved his army from the Ukraine to Western Russia? What a fool! What a naive, inferior fool!

And while I was up in this digital ivory tower, shouting insults down on those I believe below me from above, I would write page after page after page of arguments on the forum, justifying my viewpoint. Some dogs simply bark, and while those dogs share the tower with me, I can't muster the wherewithal to bark with them. Instead, I must be coy and mask my passive aggressive disdain for all those I put beneath me.

I reached that conclusion around eleven last night and spent the next hour watching Yu-Gi-Oh! Abridged. I realized that, like a children's card game, I would be making a big deal about what should simply be fun. However, it isn't enough to be fun, it has to be better. Better than something. I would have to become a defender of a game I play!

I would not only become the defender of the faith, I would become the voice, like the other barking dogs I share my tower with. Only then would I realize that I had meaning and purpose in the world.

It isn't enough to have fun. I must justify my fun by calling it art. I must look down on the fun of others by calling their fun less-than-art. Something savage and uncivilized and, while they are having fun, I must emphasis that games aren't about having fun. Games are serious business.

At first I thought you and Luckymoose were simply abrasive, but upon further inspection, I have come to the conclusion that you both are the saddest creations I have seen on this board.

I've seen towers built in IOT, but they tend to be shorter and closer to the earth. The tower you two built is quite remarkable, and the saddest part is that it was built on an internet forum over a genre of game that, while fun, isn't really that deep.

But don't feel sad. I've seen this already. NES isn't special, I've seen it before on AH.com in Shared Worlds. I've seen the some "voices of the forum" who don't participate or contribute anything to the main forum and build a wall between their community and neighboring communities. What happened to most of those voices?

They were banned. Repeatedly. Funny thing about AH.com, and it is that just because you've been here since 2006 doesn't mean you get a much longer leash than others. The only reason you two are still around, with all your negativity and all that goes with it, is because this board goes very easy on the old guard.

A pity, since I'm sure if you two were removed permanently from the board, the quality of posting in NES would improve greatly. The digital ivory towerers, the ones who decry the fun excesses of IOT and presumably other games, are the same ivory towerers who haven't had an original thought in two years and confuse everything they post with something called "art". I wonder how many new NESers had to conform to your expectations in order to be accepted by #NES, which apparently is also fairly representative of the community and all its players.

Oh well, I voted no on this poll yesterday anyway. I rather IOT get merged back into Forum Games that get itself caught in a community that believe games shouldn't be simply fun, they should be artsy and sophisticated.

This post is extremely offensive, and i'm sorry to say, but you are completely wrong about everything.

 

[Luckymoose]

The tower you two built is quite remarkable, and the saddest part is that it was built on an internet forum over a genre of game that, while fun, isn't really that deep.

Ignoring the rest of your post, for my own sake, I'll focus on this for a moment. I read your Revolution IOT, all seven pages of it. I read your updates. Your ten minute wankfest of a production that any dumbass lab monkey could do in half that time. You compare this to Capto Iugulum or End of Empires? Seriously? You think our hobby isn't deep while putting absolutely no effort into your own. NESers put in hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into world building, story writing, collaboration, and updating. We aren't some two penny throwaway bull. You call Crezth and I non-participants. We've produced more for the NESes we're in in the last week than you have ever written on this forum.

You are a sad, tiny, pathetic man at the base of my gigantic ivory tower. And when you learn to climb, you're welcome to come up. But until that day comes, keep your asinine worldviews to yourself. When you've put the labor and love behind a hobby for years, when you've made friends and continue to do so, and when you move beyond the "this is a silly game" to "this is something that hones my skills in writing and critical thinking", take your place at the top.

No one said you can't have fun IOTing. I just do not want you to have fun in NESes at the expense of others.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

I thought we were doing quite well at not being rude to each other for a bit as well. I nominate tf2 for any MP game

May I suggest multiplayer RFC?

I don't understand why this is managing to generate so much debate when it clearly isn't going to happen.
People really do enjoy waving their e-peens around.
I still think should be settled in warfare.
I think a NES Vs. IOT Neptunes Pride would be EPIC.
I am more than willing to pay for a properly setup private game for this.​

Plebs, I say we wager EVERYTHING on a flip of the coin, like real gentlemen.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

<snip> dont care about the rest
No one said you can't have fun IOTing. I just do not want you to have fun in NESes at the expense of others.

Why do you imply I or anyone else from IOT would have fun on the expense of others. When a GM of any game sets a certain criteria or ruleset I choose to oblige it, If i dont like it I dont join...you think we are plebs, barbarians, peasants that dont know how to play or to manage a game...this mindset is not correct. You pride yourself on the effort put into certain games, and I agree effort and skill was put into them, but you completely ignore our games that have exceeded most of your games in terms of complexity, visuals, story, depth...Look at I&B, look at Valkyrie and call us inferior. We both have our bad apples and our golden apples. IOT is a community to me, in which I put a large amount of effort as you have in NES. I'm not even asking for a merger, I dont care, all I want is for this insanity to stop, why must you look down on us or we look down on you...It's madness. Can't we both be civil and exchange ideas and players. When I join a NES I bring certain ideas into it, but I understand how the game is played and Im not bent on breaking it. I have the fullest respect towards the GM and other players but why must we strangle eachother while we are both burning.

Just stop being so uptight...Everyone, no group in specific. All of the energy we put into this we could've made a combined game of order and fun...but no we decide to call eachother pigs...You have all disappointed me.

 

[SouthernKing]

 

[NedimNapoleon]

As much as it annoys me SK, I must agree it is also entertaining.

Unrelated background song (just as everything is unrelated and almost random in this thread)

Link to video.

 

[spryllino]

Sonoreal: One problem with your assertions - among other things - is that it's perfectly clear that Luckymoose doesn't pretend to be a self-appointed community leader - and we've been disavowing much of what he says all along - and it's equally clear that Crezth completely disagrees with the body of NESer opinion anyway and therefore can't conceivably be setting himself up as a community leader either. Nevertheless, they are two of the most active and skilled NESers around, demonstrating in both cases large quantities of the kind of "artsy sophistication", as you put it, that we value in NES. The fact that you deride this just adds another example of an IOTer's ideas about things being basically incompatible with the main point of NESing.

 

[Terrance888]

Even me? Aw man.

I think we all believe to some degree that one shouldn't have fun at the expense of all.

EDIT: A response to N2