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Abolishing Electoral College?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Zardnaar, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    With all due respect, the American people, culture, and values are very different today then they were in 1783.
     
  2. JPetroski

    JPetroski Emperor

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    It can be changed and has been frequently. There's an amendment process to do just that. It can be a slow process when not everyone agrees that one side is omnipotent, which bothers people who think that everyone who disagrees with them is scum.

    We can actually move pretty fast on just about everything when people generally agree on something. Americans are very formidable when united.
     
  3. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Emperor

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    I have no qualms labelling those that actively seek to prevent, frustrate or damage attempts to give minorities the same rights and dignity afforded to white, straight or cis people regardless of class, as scum because that is what they are, attempts to downplay or pivot from that fact do nothing but give cover and ammunition to people who are more than willing to enable other people's suffering.

    They're certainly not neutral and they're definitely not good.
     
  4. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    The USA used to change the constitution every decade or so. Hell it really isn't even the first constitution. This quasi-religious aurora and reverence that surrounds it is relatively new I think.
     
  5. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    But I can't help but notice you've been very parsimonious with nasty labels for the MANY, MANY types of horrible, monstrous, and atrocious people all around the world, and throughout history, who DON'T match specific description.
     
  6. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Let's not distract the thread already.
     
  7. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I would say "appoint one based on input from the citizenry." The fact that every citizen's input isn't weighted exactly the same is a known element in the process, and it was included in the process for a reason that was valid at the time and still is. Yes, very closely contested states that then go all in for their winner is also an element of the process. I personally might not be fully in agreement with that element all the time either, but that doesn't change my initial stance the all of the angst about the process is focusing on a symptom. The problem is, and remains, that a significant portion of the electorate is mind bendingly ignorant and self destructive. If the process gamed out slightly differently so that that portion of the electorate were kept properly in check the symptoms would not be getting much scrutiny at all, but we would still have the problem.

    What do we do about a significant portion of the population that votes based on "well, this will screw me but it will screw <perceived evil fellow citizens> faster and harder, so yeah I'm for it"? What do we do about a significant portion of the population that votes based on "I'm on my way to vote for ...oh, shiny!!! I guess I'll vote for him instead"? What do we do about a significant portion of the population that is completely dissatisfied with the constitution under which they are voting and is committed to subversion pending abandonment of it?
     
  8. Zkribbler

    Zkribbler Deity

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    To amend the Constitution requires a 3/4 vote of the states. Small states will never give up their stranglehold on the Presidency. :smug:
     
  9. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    But what about writing a new one entirely? After all, the majority of modern sovereign nations, and over half the U.S. States themselves, have gone through more than one whole Constitution in their history. Maybe some REAL renewal of thinking around governance and how things work in the modern day and age, and not just the timid tinkering of amendments is what's in order.
     
    Lexicus likes this.
  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I personally agree, but as @Zkribbler said there would be a "we will never allow that change!" contingent for virtually every proposal that could be made. In the current atmosphere of partisan conflict no one has the power to change anything and everyone has the power to prevent <them> from making any changes.
     
  11. Arwon

    Arwon

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    It doesn't even clearly do that. Wyoming, Hawaii, Vermont and North Dakota have no influence over the presidential race where Ohio and Florida have massively outsized influence.
     
  12. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    None of the above wins elections

    Should we do away with the Bill of Rights too?
     
  13. Arwon

    Arwon

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    It's just typical federation areas. The Canadian and Australian federal constitutions are also fairly hard to amend for the same reason - lots of polities have to agree.

    Though admittedly we don't have the quasi spiritual elevation of the authors of the document that the US does.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    Gorbles likes this.
  14. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Mathematically, a Wyoming voter has twice the input that a California voter has. Voters per electoral college seat is the variable.
     
  15. Arwon

    Arwon

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    There are other countries primarily composed of the descendents of colonising populations which change and amend constitutions more frequently (Argentina and Brazil spring to mind), this isn't really an answer.

    I think even in the US, there were more amendments in eras when it had a higher foreign born population than it's current 12 percent. For example between 1909 and 1933 there were 6 amendments including the repeal of alcohol prohibition, and in that era the foreign born population was around 15%.

    If high foreign born populations made a country cling more tightly to its constitutional status quo you would probably expect to see more amendments in the much lower migration 50s to 90s, when there were 4 amendments in the 60s to 1971, and none since except the Congress salaries one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  16. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Do you play D&D by any chance?
     
  17. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Well the GoP might poo the bed. They either have to moderate long term or get electorate reform.
     
  18. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Yeah but that's not really influence, that's just contributing to which other states are the important swing states. You've net effect of Wyoming is to make it slightly more likely that one more swing state needs to go Democrat. Maybe it makes the threshold stare be Florida instead of Ohio or something.

    You've gotta be in the random swing states themselves to really have direct influence.
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Well, "the voters in the swing states are the ones with real power" is always a constant but which states are the swing states changes over time, so that constant isn't really constant. The math, however, is immutable. The design purpose of the electoral college, just like the Senate, is to empower the citizens of the smaller states relative to the citizens of the larger states, because there was a perceived imbalance tilting the other way that "needed" to be corrected. Is it a perfect correction? Probably not. But again, the real issues are masked behind this question of process. If you have a whole lot of voters driven by maliciousness, or just plain ignorance, there is no fixing of the process that is going to change that.
     
  20. Arwon

    Arwon

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    That's why I called it a weighted dice roll
     

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