[RD] Abortion, once again

[Valka D'Ur]

https://www.chron.com/politics/article/Texas-Greg-Abbott-free-public-education-17150281.php

Gov. Greg Abbott wants to challenge SCOTUS case requiring states to educate all children
The Republican leader said the prospective overturn of Roe v. Wade sets the table for Texas to 'resurrect' a challenge to Plyler v. Doe (1982) requiring states to offer free public education to all children.

"Gov. Greg Abbott is considering challenging a U.S. Supreme Court decision that requires states to offer free public education to the children of all residents, including those of undocumented immigrants. Just a few days after a leaked draft majority opinion revealed that the Supreme Court is poised to overturn Roe v. Wade, Abbott confirmed on conservative radio talk show The Joe Pags Show that he has his eyes on Plyer v. Doe next.

The Republican governor brought up the possibility of challenging the education ruling after Pagliarulo questioned what more could be done to reduce the "burden on communities" of educating the children of undocumented migrants in the Lone Star State.

"We're talking about public tax dollars, public property tax dollars going to fund these schools to teach children who are 5, 6, 7, 10 years old, who don't even have remedial English skills," Pagliarulo said.

Abbott responded by claiming that the challenges put on the state's public systems because of migrants is "extraordinary," adding that migrants are coming from 155 different countries and are costly.

"Texas already long ago sued the federal government about having to incur the costs of the education program, in a case called Plyler versus Doe," Abbott said. "And the Supreme Court ruled against us on the issue. ... I think we will resurrect that case and challenge this issue again, because the expenses are extraordinary and the times are different than when Plyler versus Doe was issued many decades ago."

Using the argument that many of these kids don't speak English is nonsense, since educating them would enable them to learn English (or at least help them be more successful at it than merely picking it up on the street).

this definitely seems better placed in another thread. the only related thing is the opinion/tradeoff of whether judicial or legislative branch settles the question. but the questions/details are otherwise quite different from abortion.

though given the quality of public education lately, maybe they're onto something for different reasons than intended

A thread dedicated to education is a good idea. I could rant a good long while there about the situation in my province. The Minister of Gutting Public Education is one of the most hated women in Alberta, among the tens of thousands of teachers, parents of elementary-aged kids, and anyone with functioning intelligence who understands that we need an educated populace, rather than what we'll get if this appalling excuse of a "government" gets its way.

if someone other than you is killed, how does that effect your daily life?

maybe, even if it doesn't directly effect your life in a way you notice immediately, you would still prefer legislation that makes it more challenging to kill people without sufficient cause?

i don't see how "skin in the game" is lacking for anybody in this discussion.

Are the states that seek to ban all abortions for any possible reason going to then step up and improve living conditions for the low-income, disabled, or otherwise marginalized women, children, and working-poor families currently alive, or the kids who will be born into situations where they're either absolutely unwanted or are a burden on the parents due to lack of finances or a safe living situation?

Didn't think so.

The bad outcomes are the point. Women who get an abortion are sinners and therefore deserving of pain or death they experience. The inclusion of ectopic pregnancies in the "pro-life" legislation confirms what I just said, and completely discredits the "pro-life" movement. This is about turning women into second class citizens by denying them control of their own bodies. The religious BS slathered on top is just a screen.

It's nobody else's damn business what people do with their bodies.

Once upon a time there was a CFCOT member who used to loftily strut around threads like these and proclaim in his 16/17-year-old "wisdom" that all women who had an abortion should be executed.

He finally stopped that (mostly) after I had a private talk with him (by that time I was one of the few people on the forum willing to actually engage with him) and reminded him that a significant number of CFC members are female and that he was possibly advocating that one or more of us should be executed for a medical decision that did not involve him in any way whatsoever. I then explained my own family history and why I would choose abortion if I were ever to become pregnant (it would always be against my will).

Given that I was one of the few people here willing to give him the time of day by that point and that I had always treated him with patience and courtesy even when he was absolutely wrong about something and just being argumentative about that (I was on staff at the time and he was a bit of a... challenge, to put it nicely), would he have wanted me dead for making the only sane medical decision I could make if I were ever in those circumstances?

In short, I told him, it's not theoretical or hypothetical. He was talking about real people and did he REALLY want fellow forum members to possibly be executed? (note that I have no idea if any female member here has ever had an abortion; I've never asked, nobody has ever said, and I consider it none of my business - I just wanted to make this kid really THINK about what he was spouting)

It did make him think a bit. He backed off, for awhile at least. Of course nobody knows if he ever did think enough to change his mind. I'd like to hope so, but then sometimes I'm an optimist.

Older members here will know exactly who I'm talking about (that person is no longer a member, so can't possibly be affected by this reference to conversations that happened over a decade ago).

If you read a single sentence beyond the headline, you'd see that the direct trigger for this push is the overturning of Roe v. Wade. As such, it is relevant to a discussion about overturning Roe v. Wade and the consequences of such an event. It seems especially relevant to people saying Roe v. Wade won't lead to subsequent attacks on civil rights and equality.

It's not often I agree with TMIT... not saying there's no connection between abortion rights and education, just that education is an extremely important issue as well, and deserving of its own thread (just go on CBC and read the articles about Alberta and Adriana LaGrange and the "draft curriculum" if you don't believe me).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Are the states that seek to ban all abortions for any possible reason going to then step up and improve living conditions for the low-income, disabled, or otherwise marginalized women, children, and working-poor families currently alive, or the kids who will be born into situations where they're either absolutely unwanted or are a burden on the parents due to lack of finances or a safe living situation?

sounds like whataboutism to me.

though i believe i've already said i disagree with the position of such states and don't think coherent reasoning allows such policy.

It's not often I agree with TMIT

probably more often than expected, but then we don't wind up arguing or discussing over those things.

for example, i'm not sure our policy preferences on the topic of this thread are meaningfully different, in large part because i'm not sure where i would draw the line. so unless you're an at-conception pro life absolutist or want to allow 3rd trimester abortions unconditionally, we're probably not too different?

 

[Senethro]

sounds like whataboutism to me.

though i believe i've already said i disagree with the position of such states and don't think coherent reasoning allows such policy.

If coherent reasoning doesn't allow policy advancing human welfare then we might as well just give up on this civilization nonsense. Whats the point otherwise?

This belief of yours says a huge amount about you.

 

[Remorseless1]

I never said that early fetuses were people? I asked why being 'small government' interacted with 'wanting to stop an internal murder' was a weird contradiction.


And obviously your 'complicated feelings about abortion' really interfere with your overall cognition. Your ability to discern motive in others is ... lacking. And your confidence is weirdly strong.

Like, Jesus, I was the one suggesting that we let people have ivermectin (under the supervision of a doctor) to treat covid-19 entirely because I wanted to hold a harder line on 'medical privacy' 'personal medical decisions' and 'between the woman and her doctor'. They never appreciated our interference, and we have learned that the 'pro-choice' movement wasn't actually pro-choice in ways that were actually important.

Like, crap, if we have to accept FASD to protect reproductive rights, then maybe a bit more collateral would have been a good idea to draw a wider moat. The pro-choice movement is a coalition of allies, each of us with either skin in the game or an interest in protecting someone.

So, you're both incorrect AND overly confident in an interaction with a person providing real-time feedback. But please, tell us more how much insight you have 'about them' from being a reporter whose sole job was to accurately collect and enliven the truth.

What I found out I shared earlier in several posts. Perhaps I encountered a group of radical antiabortion folks, but I stand by my threads. Btw, TV journos like to blabber about "truth," but that's BS. Journalists stick to facts or statements attributed to someone or some group. Truth is subjective, facts are objective.

Internal murder? We are not going to build a bridge of understanding. You consider every fetus a full-time fledged person; I believe it starts at birth. You believe a woman's right to control what goes on in her body is secondary to protecting the fetus. I believe a woman is the best person to decide what occurs at n her body. So I'll stop quoting you.

 

[Remorseless1]

If coherent reasoning doesn't allow policy advancing human welfare then we might as well just give up on this civilization nonsense. Whats the point otherwise?

This belief of yours says a huge amount about you.

Totally agree.

 

[El_Machinae]

What I found out I shared earlier in several posts. Perhaps I encountered a group of radical antiabortion folks, but I stand by my threads. Btw, TV journos like to blabber about "truth," but that's BS. Journalists stick to facts or statements attributed to someone or some group. Truth is subjective, facts are objective.

Internal murder? We are not going to build a bridge of understanding. You consider every fetus a full-time fledged person; I believe it starts at birth. You believe a woman's right to control what goes on in her body is secondary to protecting the fetus. I believe a woman is the best person to decide what occurs at n her body. So I'll stop quoting you.

See? You cannot accurately summarize me, but are utterly confident in your portrayal. There's no point 'standing by' your previous work, I have a sample of your talent right here. We have an understanding, you're confident in your ability to discern people's beliefs.

You should donate to Planned Parenthood in your region, because that's at least a measurable level of contribution.

Internal murder?

Internal to the cohort or collective. We ignore atrocities outside of our dominion all the time. I don't think that's a 'small government' or 'big government' thing, tbh.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

sounds like whataboutism to me.

Sounds like logic to me.

probably more often than expected, but then we don't wind up arguing or discussing over those things.

I've learned that some issues aren't worth the raise in blood pressure.

for example, i'm not sure our policy preferences on the topic of this thread are meaningfully different, in large part because i'm not sure where i would draw the line. so unless you're an at-conception pro life absolutist or want to allow 3rd trimester abortions unconditionally, we're probably not too different?

I'm pro-choice, as mentioned.

I once spent two YEARS conversing with a woman from Louisiana, on a Richard Dawkins/Laurence Krauss YT channel, and one of the gems she came up with about Canada is that "Canada has an abortion clinic on every street corner" and insisted it was so true, when I told her that since I'm Canadian and have lived here my entire life (except for the roughly 10 cumulative total of days spent in the U.S. over the course of 3 short trips in the '80s), surely I should know more about what's on the typical street corner of a typical Canadian city than she does. What you are NOT going to find on a typical Canadian street corner is an abortion clinic.

She refused to believe me. It's bizarre, how some people get notions fixed in their minds. We talked and argued about other things as well, of course (after all, the original topic of the video clip was physics and some Australian physics student who stated she was Catholic and accused Dawkins of starting his own religion).

Another notion she wouldn't give an inch on was her fixation that Canada allows third trimester abortions up to and including during the actual birth itself. I cannot think of any doctor or facility that would ever allow such a thing. It's my understanding that third trimester abortions are only available if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus is severely defective in some way, or has already died in utero (I think it's cruel to force a woman to give birth to a baby that is already known to be dead).

The difference here that really matters is that I consider other women's pregnancies to be none of my business. MaryKB recently gave birth to a daughter and I'm happy for her. But if she'd decided not to continue the pregnancy after she knew she was pregnant, I would not have an opinion because it's none of my business. It's also none of your business or anyone else's business.

If coherent reasoning doesn't allow policy advancing human welfare then we might as well just give up on this civilization nonsense. Whats the point otherwise?

This belief of yours says a huge amount about you.

Agreed.

 

[Berzerker]

Moderator Action: Random memes dropped in an RD thread are counted as spam. Don't do this. ~ Arakhor

 

[FriendlyFire]

I support Republicans to take random drugs. Keep up the GOOD WORK friend

Covid's toll in the U.S. reaches a once unfathomable number: 1 million deaths
The U.S. on Wednesday surpassed 1 million Covid-19 deaths, according to data compiled by NBC News — a once unthinkable scale of loss even for the country with the world's highest recorded toll from the virus.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-million-deaths-unfathomable-number-rcna22105

 

[Synobun]

https://www.wwno.org/2022-05-05/lou...bortions-opponents-call-it-barbaric?_amp=true

Louisiana bill would allow murder charges for abortions; opponents call it 'barbaric'



"The Louisiana House Committee for the Administration of Criminal Justice advanced legislation Wednesday that would redefine personhood to begin at the moment of fertilization and would allow prosecutors to charge anyone who undergoes or provides an abortion with murder.

HB813 by Rep. Danny McCormick (R-Oil City) would also allow the state to disregard any federal court rulings contradicting the new law and would grant the legislature the right to impeach and remove any state judges that attempt to block it from taking effect.

The committee’s overwhelming approval came less than 48 hours after the unprecedented leak of a U.S. Supreme Court draft opinion that showed that the court’s conservative majority is prepared to overturn the landmark decision in Roe v. Wade that established a constitutional right to abortion.

The draft opinion is not final, and the High Court has until the end of its term in June to issue a formal ruling. But McCormick insists that his bill would take effect regardless of the court's decision.

[...]

“HB813 is a barbaric bill that would subject people to murder prosecutions, punishable by life without parole, for having abortions,” Kaiser said.

Opponents of the bill said its broad scope would also criminalize in vitro fertilization, intrauterine birth control devices (IUDs) and emergency contraception as well.

“Louisiana already has a trigger law that would outlaw abortion and subject providers to penalties if Roe is overturned,” Kaiser said. “Proponents of this legislation say that’s not enough. They want to send people to prison for life.”

 

[Birdjaguar]

How to win friends and influence people.

 

[Lexicus]

HB813 by Rep. Danny McCormick (R-Oil City) would also allow the state to disregard any federal court rulings contradicting the new law and would grant the legislature the right to impeach and remove any state judges that attempt to block it from taking effect.

OMFG LMAO
The Republicans are doing this and the Democrats won't even get rid of the Senate parliamentarian

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Opponents of the bill said its broad scope would also criminalize in vitro fertilization, intrauterine birth control devices (IUDs) and emergency contraception as well.

This is utterly insane. I suppose they'd prefer to make all birth control illegal, and never mind the fact that there are times when birth control pills are prescribed for reasons other than avoiding pregnancy (ie. when a woman's menstrual cycles go insanely wonky).

 

[Synobun]

This is utterly insane. I suppose they'd prefer to make all birth control illegal, and never mind the fact that there are times when birth control pills are prescribed for reasons other than avoiding pregnancy (ie. when a woman's menstrual cycles go insanely wonky).

You're in luck(?)!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...rth-control-aca-requirement-democratic-probe/

"Some conservatives have argued that the federal government is wrong to tell employers what health benefits they must cover, fighting for years against the ACA provisions on birth control products. The Susan B. Anthony List, an antiabortion group, repeatedly called on Trump administration officials to narrow the law, characterizing it as an “abortion drug mandate.”

Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.) and other Republicans have also criticized a 1965 ruling that upheld married couples’ legal right to birth control, Griswold v. Connecticut. Alito’s leaked opinion also includes arguments that could lead to ultimately overturning that decision, experts argued.

“Roe largely relied on Griswold v. Connecticut, which established a right to privacy to use contraception by drawing together different provisions and cases that, in one form or another, protected some sphere of privacy or liberty,” Boston University law professor Robert Tsai wrote in Politico Magazine on Tuesday. “The same accusation Alito levels against Roe can also be made about Griswold.”

 

[Zardnaar]

So fat I have argued don't tell me what's right or wrong tell me what's legal.

Clarence Thomas is on shaky ground. But all of the GoP appointments argueably lied ilot mislead the Senate. Seems to countvas a misdemeanor.

So theoretically you could impeachbthe lot of them after all they impeached Clinton for lying.

Hmmmnn hung with own rope. If this backfired electorally in November for the GoP..... Any senator seats up for grabs these midterms?

 

[EvaDK]

Maybe American women should simply deny men sex, if this ruling goes live?

Let's see how many days (or hours) would pass, before a lot of people would suddenly do a 180.

 

[Remorseless1]

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said yesterday if the Trump Party regains control of Congress a national anti-abortion law would be passed by the legislators. Hmmm, I thought the Republicans wanted this to be a state issue, not federal. Oh wait, the GOP sold its soul to back Trump, so traditional Republican policies were dumped.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Maybe American women should simply deny men sex, if this ruling goes live?

Let's see how many days (or hours) would pass, before a lot of people would suddenly do a 180.

In this day and age, I doubt many men would care much. There are other options.

I remember an episode of Little House on the Prairie in which the women of Walnut Grove went on a cooking/housekeeping strike and some moved into Nelly's (the hotel/restaurant that was in the last few seasons). After a few weeks of the men having to cook their own meals and clean their own houses, they caved.

 

[EvaDK]

I remember an episode of Little House on the Prairie in which the women of Walnut Grove went on a cooking/housekeeping strike and some moved into Nelly's (the hotel/restaurant that was in the last few seasons). After a few weeks of the men having to cook their own meals and clean their own houses, they caved.

Ironically, the best cook in a kitchen I know personally... is a guy. It's not fair!

 

[Kaitzilla]

More and more all night long. With fireworks and horns.

If it's someone I'm speaking to? "Good", just bring enough muscle and charisma to excise bad actors fast, with 'over-reaction' being better than 'under-reaction'.

Very honestly, people should be having backyard parties right now with friends and friends-of-friends, making placards and discussing strategy and messaging. You'll need signs that photograph well. You'll need people who photograph well. You'll need numbers. And you'll need people who do push-ups on their knuckles. And you might too, in prep. Store those placards, and have social networks that can get people on the streets.

One important point noted on the Wikipedia page I just came from is that there's a lack of references from the indigenous point of view. Non-Aztecs can debate the reasons (or if cannibalism even occurred as the Europeans described) until the proverbial cows come home. But it's not going to give the whole story.


I last stepped foot in the U.S. in 1987. Aside from a wistful thought of "it would be nice to visit the Grand Canyon someday" now and then, I've really had no wish to repeat the experience. I kid you not, during Trump's time in office, some Canadians were being asked their opinions of Trump as part of the questions the American agents were asking.

How would Canadians answer that honestly and expect to be allowed in?


The intended consequence is the same, though, right? The ability to have sex and be in no danger of causing procreation to occur?


Great idea. After all, if the (now ex-) Minister of Health in my province can trespass on his neighbor's driveway and scream and rant at the man in front of his family because the neighbor (a doctor) criticized the MoH on Twitter for bad policy and faced exactly ZERO charges (trespassing, harassment, uttering threats, endangering children, disturbing the peace, and half a dozen other things), then it's absolutely fair to hold a protest at a judge's home for bad policy. Just don't do anything violent, and don't litter.

Protestors indeed showed up at Kavanaugh and Robert's houses yesterday. (Around 100)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/protesters-supreme-court-justices-homes_n_62788d49e4b0d7ea4cce8eb0

More are planned today and tomorrow for the other conservative justices' houses.

There are rumors Alito and his family were moved to an undisclosed location.
All the justices are getting 24/7 security now.