About the Trinity and being Christian

[plarq]

To me Jesus is at the level of Prophet Mohammed (Politics Being Upon Him), as my atheistic view of religion founders. Leaders only.

 

[_random_]

So God's kinda like the three classic states of water represented by water? He's got a solid form, a liquid form and a gas form, but it's still water regardless of the form.

This analogy frustrates me, since it seems to indicate a sort of modalism.

 

[civ_king]

This analogy frustrates me, since it seems to indicate a sort of modalism.

Got a better analogy? I find it works explaining to the uncatechised about how there can be three distinct things in that are one.

 

[_random_]

I rather like the image of three chain-links linked together. They're separate, but they're very intimately connected, and you can't think of one without thinking of the others. It's still imperfect, but it's an improvement.

 

[LucyDuke]

Thread has been entirely unhelpful. Good thing it's just idle curiosity.

 

[_random_]

I'm sorry to hear that. Here are a few points I've had rattling around. I can expound upon any of them later if you like:

God is fundamentally loving. Love, in the Christian understanding, cannot be self-directed. Love shared between eternally co-existent persons allows for God to have had this quality from the get-go.

Humanity is created in the image of God. God's fundamentally communal existence creates a model for us to live in community with one-another.

Now neither of those get to non-Trinitiarian=non-Christian, but I hope they shed some light on why the Trinity is so important to many Christians.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

First point, the Church of the East, the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria are all Trinitarian.

Second point, the Patriarchate of Alexandria was the institution which had the lead hand in formulating the Orthodox view of what the Trinity was Nicaea, First Ephesus and Second Ephesus. Hell it was the institution that ruined Arius and Nestorius. Granted, Granted, it lost out at Chalcedon but up until that point it had been in the driving seat. The other Patriarchs either followed or got run over like Nestorius.

Yeah, I honestly know more about Islamic theology than Christian these days. Problem is, the more about Islam you learn, the more sense what you already know makes. The more about Christianity you learn, the less it all makes sense.

 

[timtofly]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/29/my-take-im-spiritual-not-religious-is-a-cop-out/?hpt=hp_c2

Would that be the third leg of Sola Scriptura?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Frankly, I don't think it is a big deal at all one way or the other and I don't give it much thought except when the trinitarians start denying we're Christians because of it.

Accept Jesus Christ as the son of God, your savior and king. Boom, Christian 101. And when we're dead, I really don't think ol St. Peter at the pearly gates is going to want a theological discussion from you on your views about it. Is Jesus divine? yes. Is Jesus the son of God? yes. Is Jesus God? no.

Where does the Bible make this distinction? Where does it say "You have to believe Jesus is the Son of God, but don't have to believe he's God, in order to be saved?"

All it says is "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ..."

Do you have to believe he's God, or only the son of God? I guess I'll leave that to Jesus when he does the judging. I really don't know.

I don't think its "Just another theological issue". Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not seems pretty darn important to me.

But is it essential?

The Bible isn't clear enough to me to say. So I'll let God do the judging, and I'll just try to get people to believe the Trinity because its true

Yeah, I honestly know more about Islamic theology than Christian these days. Problem is, the more about Islam you learn, the more sense what you already know makes. The more about Christianity you learn, the less it all makes sense.

You're Christian too, aren't you? And what gives you that impression of Christianity?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You're Christian too, aren't you? And what gives you that impression of Christianity?

23 years of studying it. It's a far less consistent religion than Islam, and I don't think that's entirely because it's a mere 600 years older.

 

[_random_]

600 years, a fair bit fewer followers, and a central work with clearly and strongly defined authority probably help Islam in that regard.

 

[vypernight]

First person: "HE said to love Everybody."
Second Person: "Uh uh. HE said to love Everyone."
Third Person: "No, HE said to love All!"

(All three shoot each other)

That's all I see whenever I see these arguments.

 

[Jehoshua]

23 years of studying it. It's a far less consistent religion than Islam, and I don't think that's entirely because it's a mere 600 years older.

depends on what "christianity" your looking at. It is erroneous to treat christianity (or islam) as monolithic entities. I would think it self evident that the protestant heresy is not the same thing as the Catholic or Orthodox Christian faiths, and personally I would completely understand your view if you spent 23 years studying protestantism

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Got a better analogy? I find it works explaining to the uncatechised about how there can be three distinct things in that are one.

The analogy doesn't really explain that much. You're just saying there are things that can exist in 3 states. What we're dealing with here is more distinct than a body of water, gas or ice. It's about a single distinct entity which exists in 3 states simultaneously.

I don't think its "Just another theological issue". Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not seems pretty darn important to me.

What makes this so important? What difference does it make beyond a theological issue?

 

[Masada]

The analogy doesn't really explain that much. You're just saying there are things that can exist in 3 states. What we're dealing with here is more distinct than a body of water, gas or ice. It's about a single distinct entity which exists in 3 states simultaneously.

I exist in three states. I'm a son, grandson and husband. Yet at the end of the day: I'm still me!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I exist in three states. I'm a son, grandson and husband. Yet at the end of the day: I'm still me!

That's a better analogy, because it does indeed has the one entity as subject. Still it only works as a illustration of a single entity existing in 3 states, not so much as an explanation of the concept of trinity. But that's the weakness of most analogies. A good tool to illustrate a concept, a lacking tool to explain it.

The explanation would have to involve the entity being the creator and the creation at the same time.

 

[Masada]

Jehoshua or Plotinus would be better able to explain this.

Still it only works as a illustration of a single entity existing in 3 states, not so much as an explanation of the concept of trinity.

Hence the Nicene Creed, which I'll abridge to save us all time and effort:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

[...]

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.

The explanation would have to involve the entity being the creator and the creation at the same time.

God exists out of time.

 

[Leoreth]

So God's kinda like the three classic states of water represented by water? He's got a solid form, a liquid form and a gas form, but it's still water regardless of the form.

But water can only exist in one state at the same time, while God is all of his aspects at once.

 

[Agent327]

The explanation would have to involve the entity being the creator and the creation at the same time.

If God created H. Ghost and Son out of himself then they would logically be 'of the same substance' (as in the Nicene Creed).

But I reckon there isn't a dogma that has created so much dispute as that of the Trinity, ever since it was first formulated.

 

[Masada]

We've long ago established that civ_king is an awful Christian apologist. So we ought not to worry all that much if he can't explain the Trinity.