affirmative action?

I'm going to need to see some rational for different punishments for the same crime before I can possibly understand how that makes sense. I've heard of progressive taxes, but not progressive fines for equal crimes. At this time, I very much disagree with that point.

But I agree with your first sentence :)

Rich people park illegally for free. Well, not for free, technically, but it's economical for them to ignore the fine.
We could easily calculate what salary thranslates to how much walking meters/yards saved would make illegal parking economical.

The same is true for many other fines.
 
I'm going to need to see some rational for different punishments for the same crime before I can possibly understand how that makes sense. I've heard of progressive taxes, but not progressive fines for equal crimes. At this time, I very much disagree with that point.
Would you be ok with a fine expressed in terms of a standard % of income. It is not a progressive fine (in the progressive taxes understanding of progressive) where you are fined a lower percentage on the low ends of income and a higher marginal percentage of high ends of income. It is just a flat percentage, the same for everyone.
 
I'm going to need to see some rational for different punishments for the same crime before I can possibly understand how that makes sense. I've heard of progressive taxes, but not progressive fines for equal crimes. At this time, I very much disagree with that point.

But I agree with your first sentence :)
Well a rich guy can double-park & not really care if he drops $100 whereas a poor guy will be much more affected.

I'd be willing to bet the poor pay a whole lot larger percentage of all fines & fees than the rich per capita.
 
I guess when I stopped to look at fines as a disincentive for wrong doing and not a compensation to society, I can see where you guys are coming from. It won't make Bill Gates return a late library book if he only pays a few dollars in fines, but make him cough up a few hundred $/day, than it might start to add up. Yet Bill Gates keeping a library book X days late is no more hurtful to society than an unemployed laborer.

I'm still not going to jump on your bandwagon until I've let it settle in my brain for a while... Disincentives or compensations...
 
treating skin colour differently is as silly as treating blonds differently from brunettes, from Black haired people.

Ginger reporting for school bullying duty. This crap happens, whether we like it or not. Affirmative action for socio-economic reasons, yes... which will more-often-than-not go along racial lines. If you're from a 'disadvantaged' group (Aboriginal, African American, whatever), then you're going to have less opportunities to advance yourself, and that will carry on to your children. Affirmative action at least tries to even this out. Naturally, you want the best candidate for whatever role is needed. I'm a bit torn; I certainly see the benefit, though.

Also: black-haired women & brunettes > blondes

also:

Link to video.
 
Ginger reporting for school bullying duty. This crap happens, whether we like it or not. Affirmative action for socio-economic reasons, yes... which will more-often-than-not go along racial lines. If you're from a 'disadvantaged' group (Aboriginal, African American, whatever), then you're going to have less opportunities to advance yourself, and that will carry on to your children. Affirmative action at least tries to even this out. Naturally, you want the best candidate for whatever role is needed. I'm a bit torn; I certainly see the benefit, though.

My tuppence on the matter:

I was talking not so long ago to a man who was involved with admissions for Oxford University, almost universally regarded as one of the world's top five institutions for higher education. He said that in their admissions they do use a form of affirmative action; if they had two candidates whom they could not seperate except by the fact that one had gone to a grammar school in Cheltenham (foreigners: a very rich town indeed) and one had been to Hovel Road Comprehensive in Peckham (foreigners: don't go there, you'll get stabbed), they will pick the one from Peckham. Their logic, which I think is a good one, was that if you can achieve as much with a poor education as the next man can with a very good one, you clearly have far more natural ability and so will probably be a better student for the university. Furthermore, he said, they have a target of about 70% of their students coming from state schools, but said that considering how 90% of pupils attend them, they weren't going to lower their admissions standards but simply encourage state school pupils to get the application in. That's positive discrimination as a good thing.

Now as for its use in the wider world: I think we have to remember that a few decades ago people genuinely believed that all black people were less intelligent than all white people, no women could ever do a decent job in management, homosexuals were of lower moral character, and so on. Originally, positive discrimination forced people to witness that actually they could, and so then it was a good thing. Nowadays, however, almost nobody genuinely holds these views and as such it is outdated, and causes far more anger when misapplied than it does good when applied 'correctly'. I still stand by the university's approach, however, just not 'let's make 50% of MPs women, because women are 50% of the population' - no, let's just make the MPs we have the best people for the job regardless of their sex. Positive discrimination is a poor substitute for colour blindness.
 
Wages of blacks were increasing more quickly before AA started.

:rolleyes: wages of everyone was increasing more quickly before AA started. If it's affirmative action's fault, then AA caused all wage stagnation of the past 30 years.



Anyone arguing for class over race based AA is missing some key components. It should be a mixture, but it's important to remember that a college educated black man has the same chances of getting a call to interview as a white man with a criminal record. In America, black men are effectively born with criminal records in terms of social status. Blacks have to be "over educated" to compete with whites. The talent demanded of successful blacks is huge, while for whites it is small.

Chris Rock sums it up with his neighborhood.


Link to video.
 
Chris Rock sums it up with his neighborhood.


Link to video.

Now you've got me wondering if the slums and ghettos of America are filled with black dentists and Mexican brain surgeons...
 
:lol: more rather to make it while black, you have to really make it. The slums and ghettos of America are filled with brilliant people held back by too many things. One in particular is poor health, which will slow or stop even the most driven. Just being black correlates to having PTSD in America. PTSD is a disability... one could have the perspective it's amazing black people believe in themselves enough to keep trying, and keep succeeding
 
Now you've got me wondering if the slums and ghettos of America are filled with black dentists and Mexican brain surgeons...

They aren't, they are however filled with poor blacks, whites & hispanics
 
My tuppence on the matter:

I was talking not so long ago to a man who was involved with admissions for Oxford University, almost universally regarded as one of the world's top five institutions for higher education. He said that in their admissions they do use a form of affirmative action; if they had two candidates whom they could not seperate except by the fact that one had gone to a grammar school in Cheltenham (foreigners: a very rich town indeed) and one had been to Hovel Road Comprehensive in Peckham (foreigners: don't go there, you'll get stabbed), they will pick the one from Peckham. Their logic, which I think is a good one, was that if you can achieve as much with a poor education as the next man can with a very good one, you clearly have far more natural ability and so will probably be a better student for the university. Furthermore, he said, they have a target of about 70% of their students coming from state schools, but said that considering how 90% of pupils attend them, they weren't going to lower their admissions standards but simply encourage state school pupils to get the application in. That's positive discrimination as a good thing.

That's affirmative action based on economic factors, not race. Based on race should be illegal in the US, but there was a time it served a purpose. That time is gone.

There's another difference with your Oxford example: Both candidates are basically equal. If the candidate from the poor school was a worse student and still got in over the better student from a rich school, then there's a problem with the admissions process.

Nothing in the US should officially be based on race. Basing it on economic factors I think I'm OK with, if the economic factor is the only difference between two otherwise equally qualified candidates and it's not for some supposed social purpose (like Oxford claiming the poor student has more natural ability, rather than claiming giving the admission to the poor student can help fight social and class divisions).
 
That's affirmative action based on economic factors, not race. Based on race should be illegal in the US, but there was a time it served a purpose. That time is gone.
Like back in the old days when having a degree and black puts you on the same playing field with degree-less white men with criminal records?

Like... all the way back to 2011?

Like how most black people have serious toxic stress from being black in America and are still getting by, just at obviously handicapped levels of success all the back in 2011?
 
Like back in the old days when having a degree and black puts you on the same playing field with degree-less white men with criminal records?

Like... all the way back to 2011?

Like how most black people have serious toxic stress from being black in America and are still getting by, just at obviously handicapped levels of success all the back in 2011?
I'd like a side of proof with that
 
Like back in the old days when having a degree and black puts you on the same playing field with degree-less white men with criminal records?

Like... all the way back to 2011?

Like how most black people have serious toxic stress from being black in America and are still getting by, just at obviously handicapped levels of success all the back in 2011?

I think your advocating AA as a solution to these problems, when I don't think it's a realistic cure to the issue. It seems like AA seeks to remedy the racism or prejudices in peoples hearts and minds, but it only makes them more pissed off. Instead of persuading or guiding racists away from their views, it only makes them more entrenched in the idea that there are racial differences.

I'm not saying that AA doesn't get more minorities hired, or that the unemployment among minorities and mean salary hasn't been positively affected, but I'm saying that it is disheartening that this will likely need to be funded and enforced indefinitely. Like sticking your finger in a dam. The dam is just going to start leaking when you pull your finger out, and you can't patch the leak while you have it plugged up.
You don't learn to ride a bike by keeping the training wheels on indefinitely.
 
That's affirmative action based on economic factors, not race. Based on race should be illegal in the US, but there was a time it served a purpose. That time is gone.
So what exactly has changed between then and now?

Nothing in the US should officially be based on race.
Then why did it once serve a purpose?
 
I'd like a side of proof with that
You have 40% more posts than I do in half the time, you should remember the thread.

I think your advocating AA as a solution to these problems, when I don't think it's a realistic cure to the issue. It seems like AA seeks to remedy the racism or prejudices in peoples hearts and minds, but it only makes them more pissed off. Instead of persuading or guiding racists away from their views, it only makes them more entrenched in the idea that there are racial differences.

I'm not saying that AA doesn't get more minorities hired, or that the unemployment among minorities and mean salary hasn't been positively affected, but I'm saying that it is disheartening that this will likely need to be funded and enforced indefinitely. Like sticking your finger in a dam. The dam is just going to start leaking when you pull your finger out, and you can't patch the leak while you have it plugged up.
You don't learn to ride a bike by keeping the training wheels on indefinitely.
Yo, I'm not actually a huge supporter of AA. It just drives me mad the ignorance that tries to paint over the race part and the degree of racism combined with the physiological effects of racism. Racism is still the problem. I think it was Flying Pig who argued the value of AA when people didn't even know black people were smart enough to show up, and that the cognitive dissonance did a lot of good. I don't agree that AA is useless anymore, though, I just don't know what its role should be.

Further I disagree with your opening comment on racists. They will always find an excuse to not change. Pissing them off, strangely enough, has made the most difference. Booker T Washington's approach to "seek economic parity" first did not work, and not for lack of trying. Simply, racists are happy to hold every piece of ground and would prefer to do so quietly. They don't quietly cede anything. Shaming racists results in their kids being less racist. Change happens over generations, and then the older people get outnumbered and get embarrassed. It takes time but I see no reason to appease racists on any front.
 
The problem is that AA might actually create more racism instead of making racism less of a problem.
Like if a black person gets accepted with test scores well below average, others would say that he only got in because of lower standards, while being ignorant many of his other accomplishments.
 
:lol: more rather to make it while black, you have to really make it. The slums and ghettos of America are filled with brilliant people held back by too many things. One in particular is poor health, which will slow or stop even the most driven. Just being black correlates to having PTSD in America. PTSD is a disability... one could have the perspective it's amazing black people believe in themselves enough to keep trying, and keep succeeding
You're exaggerating. I think I have some PTSD myself but in general white people are more neurotic, depressed & suicidal.
 
The problem is that AA might actually create more racism instead of making racism less of a problem.
Like if a black person gets accepted with test scores well below average, others would say that he only got in because of lower standards, while being ignorant many of his other accomplishments.
I think a reactionary blowback is inevitable in every instance of progress. I think for the most part it is dormantly racist people rearing their heads. I don't think there's any significant move towards racism. The only danger is in times of economic downturn a particularly convincing populist leader scapegoats them, but that's no reason not to move forward. In the words of Dr. King, "The time is always right to do the right thing".
 
You're exaggerating. I think I have some PTSD myself but in general white people are more neurotic, depressed & suicidal.
No, I'm paraphrasing a professor at Stanford in the psychiatry department who is a leading world expert in PTSD. You, on the other hand, think you might have some PTSD and are making a general statement about white people based on...... ?

edit: omfg http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199525/ that was the fastest google rebuttle I've ever employed.
Objectives. We estimated racial/ethnic differences in rates of major depression and investigated possible mediators.
Methods. Depression prevalence rates among African American, Hispanic, and White adults were estimated from a population-based national sample and adjusted for potential confounders.
Results. African Americans (odds ratio [OR] = 1.16, 95% confidence interval [CI] = 0.93, 1.44) and Hispanics (OR = 1.44, 95% CI = 1.02, 2.04) exhibited elevated rates of major depression relative to Whites. After control for confounders, Hispanics and Whites exhibited similar rates, and African Americans exhibited significantly lower rates than Whites.
Conclusions. Major depression and factors associated with depression were more frequent among members of minority groups than among Whites. Elevated depression rates among minority individuals are largely associated with greater health burdens and lack of health insurance, factors amenable to public policy intervention.
 
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