Alec Baldwin has a point

[Berzerker]

Have you ever gone to court after you've pressed charges on someone? Because I have, not for something like this, but because of that experience I fully understand why people choose to take a settlement instead.

No, but I've never been the victim of such a serious crime and I tend to be forgiving. Nothing wrong with taking a settlement, but if that involves allowing a real criminal to remain free and my silence, I know how I'd feel when that criminal struck again...and again...etc. I'd know I could have done more than accept $$$ to keep quiet and even if I took that money, I'd say to hell with that - I'm speaking up before dozens upon dozens of women became victims.

You're treating this like it's an either/or situation, or as if everyone had perfect info on what the response would be. It wasn't. Most of them did what they did because they were under the impression that it was the best choice for getting some form of restitution for what had been done, and that not doing it would have been even more limited a result. Questioning this doesn't at all preclude the result or counter their original decision.

It is an either/or situation... Sign here, take the $$$ and keep quiet - or press charges, raise a fuss (3 Billboards), do something other than accept cash for my silence. Reminds me of a woman who was murdered in a NYC alley (I think), she was screaming for help and nobody did anything. This wasn't something that happened in a few seconds, people had time to offer assistance - but they didn't. Fear, apathy, misjudging the severity of the attack, I dont know why - but I have to believe those people felt guilt for letting her die.

If this guy raped my loved one and I found out all these women dealt with the devil instead of pursuing justice - and justice isn't cashing a check - I'd be mad at them too. I would... I'd be telling them my loved one was raped because they didn't do anything. Admittedly its a tough position for them to be in, doing the right thing can be tough. But if I was in their shoes, I'd feel guilty nonetheless.

You're assuming those who took settlements lack guilt.

I'm assuming they did feel guilt because I sure would

But no, I wouldn't feel guilty. The crimes of another are not my fault and we live in a world that is unfair. There are times when you are powerless to enact fruitful change, especially when you are up against an authority, and someone accepting money doesn't make them complicit in future crimes nor does it mean they are simply shaking their hands out for a stimulus package.

I'd feel guilty as hell... Sorry honey, I didn't rape you and the world is unfair. I just took money from your rapist to keep quiet. And you're lecturing me about morality?

His more recent victims are in the same position as his older victims, and the only reason his crimes are coming to distinctive light now is due to evidence and an overwhelming surge of testimony.

His more recent victims were in that position because his older victims didn't pursue justice.

Do you genuinely believe Weinstein would have been deterred in his crimes if his very first victim had jumped up and down and shouted to the moon and back about his sexual assault?

YES! Even if the courts didn't send him off to jail women would have learned to avoid him. Maybe he would have been canned long ago, or someone took justice into their own hands and sent him to his maker.

 

[Synobun]

I'd feel guilty as hell... Sorry honey, I didn't rape you and the world is unfair. I just took money from your rapist to keep quiet. And you're lecturing me about morality?

Misplaced guilt does not make someone a good person or suggest they have good morals. Your perspective on this situation is catastrophically naive and simplistic. You see his victims as self-interested harpies and assume that they live in a society which is conducive towards bringing justice to criminals involved in sex crimes. Your position is based on the idea that one must consciously avoid bringing justice to a predator which is a position wholly corrupt.

YES! Even if the courts didn't send him off to jail women would have learned to avoid him. Maybe he would have been canned long ago, or someone took justice into their own hands and sent him to his maker.

You exist in a vastly different world than the rest of us, not to mention that you are conveniently ignoring that Weinstein is one of many and the upper echelons of the industry concurrently engage in similar behaviour. To believe that women would en masse avoid an individual because a woman claimed she was assaulted or that he would simply be snuffed out via vigilante justice is a belief deeply steeped in utter fantasy.

 

[OldBoomer]

No, but I've never been the victim of such a serious crime and I tend to be forgiving. Nothing wrong with taking a settlement, but if that involves allowing a real criminal to remain free and my silence, I know how I'd feel when that criminal struck again...and again...etc. I'd know I could have done more than accept $$$ to keep quiet and even if I took that money, I'd say to hell with that - I'm speaking up before dozens upon dozens of women became victims.

I completely get where you're coming from and I fundamentally agree with you. I would feel the exact same way. I'd say [expletive] your money and I'd press charges if I was in a situation where I thought other people could also be victimized by this person. I'm just saying that having dealt with the legal system I really do understand why some people choose not to especially involving something this personal. I also get that all of these actresses are public figures and this sort of thing has the potential to ruin their careers. It's a lot of unwanted exposure and can be a lot of risk. It's also a very long and drawn out process.

 

[Arwon]

Less than a fifth of sexual assault victims report to police and a much smaller portion ever goes to charges, trials or convictions.

There are reasons for this. Criticising victims for silence is very poor form.

 

[Lexicus]

His more recent victims were in that position because his older victims didn't pursue justice.

I have to admit this is a way to blame rape on rape victims that's new to me

 

[Berzerker]

Misplaced guilt does not make someone a good person or suggest they have good morals. Your perspective on this situation is catastrophically naive and simplistic. You see his victims as self-interested harpies and assume that they live in a society which is conducive towards bringing justice to criminals involved in sex crimes. Your position is based on the idea that one must consciously avoid bringing justice to a predator which is a position wholly corrupt.

You exist in a vastly different world than the rest of us, not to mention that you are conveniently ignoring that Weinstein is one of many and the upper echelons of the industry concurrently engage in similar behaviour. To believe that women would en masse avoid an individual because a woman claimed she was assaulted or that he would simply be snuffed out via vigilante justice is a belief deeply steeped in utter fantasy.

So now you're accusing me of claiming rape victims are predators? I'd report you to a moderator... but you are one, go figure - its good to be the king. Nah, I dont report people... And the victims didn't act out of self interest? Well, not all of them... Somebody's pursuing justice. Course maybe they are acting out of self interest, maybe they consciously decided to try and bring a predator to justice because they dont want to wake up one day to learn their rapist did it again, or worse, killed someone. How do they fit into your analysis? They didn't let 'society', or cash, make their decision.

My position is I'd feel guilty if I had the chance to stop or slow a predator and took their $$$ instead. So I'd be acting out of self interest too, maybe everyone does. As for vigilantes, some people kill or beat rapists when they escape justice, sometimes before they even get the chance. I could only hope to be on the jury that acquits them. Gov Dukakis, if you found a man raping Kitty (his wife), what would you do?

Less than a fifth of sexual assault victims report to police and a much smaller portion ever goes to charges, trials or convictions.

There are reasons for this. Criticising victims for silence is very poor form.

Is taking their money in exchange for silence good form?

I have to admit this is a way to blame rape on rape victims that's new to me

If a woman allows a rapist to remain free because he paid her off, shouldn't she be blamed for enabling him? I think so... If your loved one was raped and you found out past victims let him go in exchange for money, how would you feel?

 

[Arwon]

You do not get to tell victims of rape and sexual assault how to feel about that, or how to react to it.

 

[Lexicus]

If a woman allows a rapist to remain free because he paid her off, shouldn't she be blamed for enabling him? I think so... If your loved one was raped and you found out past victims let him go in exchange for money, how would you feel?

I imagine I'd mostly be mad at the rapist.

 

[Synobun]

So now you're accusing me of claiming rape victims are predators? I'd report you to a moderator... but you are one, go figure - its good to be the king. Nah, I dont report people...

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

You're welcome to report me. I'm not a moderator anymore (that it says I am is merely clerical delay), and even if I were they're not immune to the rules.

If a woman allows a rapist to remain free because he paid her off, shouldn't she be blamed for enabling him? I think so... If your loved one was raped and you found out past victims let him go in exchange for money, how would you feel?

This is a ridiculous viewpoint. Again you are putting the victim in the position of sole executioner of justice. This is not how real life works in any semblance. Not only does it presume unerring omnipotence but it again portrays the situation as though the sexual offender not being convicted is a personal failing on the part of the victim.

There was a rapist in my hometown who escaped conviction five times due to settlement three times and twice due to lack of forensic evidence. One of his victims was my sister, another was a friend. I did not blame these women for him going free. I certainly did not dare tell them they should feel guilty for his freedom. What an awful thing to propose.

Those who settled did so because their lawyer and the police strongly suggested that any criminal case would be dismissed due to the time between the incident and the charge, as well as lack of forensic evidence. It is difficult to prove a rape, even more so a sexual assault, and a settlement may be a victim's only option besides simply walking away. Money does not heal wounds but it helps you survive in a world dominated by it.

 

[Perfection]

People who were victims have family and friends who would be subject to the fallout of their accusations. Besmirching victims for not wanting those close to them to go through such turmoil is a dick move.

 

[FriendlyFire]

But is he right?

Look at Bill Oreilly Cosby and the stuff he got away with.

 

[Kyriakos]

At least he got caught. It's an improvement. I think that those in positions of power should be far more checked than those who have little or no power.
Btw, i am sure those in the oscar academy awards (i don't mean victimized female actors), drooling about him for so many years, knew nothing of this, amirite.

 

[Berzerker]

You do not get to tell victims of rape and sexual assault how to feel about that, or how to react to it.

You didn't answer the question... if a rape victim takes the rapists' money to keep quiet, why cant others express an opinion? Seems a bit hypocritical to say the least for women to complain about 'the industry' when the victims keep quiet in exchange for money. If even they wont come forward, how are other people - like the courts - who dont know what happened supposed to help clean it up? This 'conspiracy' of silence ensured more victims, you know?

I imagine I'd mostly be mad at the rapist.

Yes, thats a given... But at least you'd still reserve some of your anger for the enablers.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

You're welcome to report me. I'm not a moderator anymore (that it says I am is merely clerical delay), and even if I were they're not immune to the rules.

I got it from you calling rape victims 'harpies' and then attributing that characterization to me. Harpies are not rape victims, they're monstrous predators. Well, if you're a sloth or monkey...

This is a ridiculous viewpoint. Again you are putting the victim in the position of sole executioner of justice. This is not how real life works in any semblance. Not only does it presume unerring omnipotence but it again portrays the situation as though the sexual offender not being convicted is a personal failing on the part of the victim.

Justice has to start somewhere... If not with the victim, then where? I dont expect a rape victim to execute justice by herself, but I dont expect them to take cash in exchange for silence. They're 'enabling' the rapist, and they'll undoubtedly feel remorse when he strikes again - I would anyway. Wouldn't you?

There was a rapist in my hometown who escaped conviction five times due to settlement three times and twice due to lack of forensic evidence. One of his victims was my sister, another was a friend. I did not blame these women for him going free. I certainly did not dare tell them they should feel guilty for his freedom. What an awful thing to propose.

Those who settled did so because their lawyer and the police strongly suggested that any criminal case would be dismissed due to the time between the incident and the charge, as well as lack of forensic evidence. It is difficult to prove a rape, even more so a sexual assault, and a settlement may be a victim's only option besides simply walking away. Money does not heal wounds but it helps you survive in a world dominated by it.

I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like these victims did seek justice and the legal system let them down. They didn't sell their silence, thats what we're discussing - the years of enabling that allowed Weinstein to avoid justice, until now. Somebody decided to speak up, finally... How many women became victims in the mean time?

 

[Berzerker]

People who were victims have family and friends who would be subject to the fallout of their accusations. Besmirching victims for not wanting those close to them to go through such turmoil is a dick move.

They had to make the accusation to sell their silence, true? Now what if your wife or daughter was raped by the man who bought their silence? I'd think the 'dick move' was enabling the rapist to commit more rapes in exchange for cash.

Look at Bill Oreilly Cosby and the stuff he got away with.

Amazing... and disgusting. Now, if you were one of those victims from long ago, wouldn't you realize your silence - if indeed you sold it - allowed more women to be raped? Its one thing to be raped, quite another knowing you sold your silence and other women were raped as a result. Sure, I'd tell myself all sorts of rationalizations to ease my conscious, but I'd still know I helped keep a rapist out of jail.

 

[Perfection]

You didn't answer the question... if a rape victim takes the rapists' money to keep quiet, why cant others express an opinion?

I don't think Arwon is saying that one can't express an opinion. He's just noting that your opinion really comes from an unjustified place based on making a bunch of unseemly insinuations on their motivations instead of having the faintest bit of empathy.

Seems a bit hypocritical to say the least for women to complain about 'the industry' when the victims keep quiet in exchange for money. If even they wont come forward, how are other people - like the courts - who dont know what happened supposed to help clean it up? This 'conspiracy' of silence ensured more victims, you know?

The nature of abuse is that it coerces its continuance by threats. The fact that people react to threats by backing down is human.

They had to make the accusation to sell their silence, true? Now what if your wife or daughter was raped by the man who bought their silence? I'd think the 'dick move' was enabling the rapist to commit more rapes in exchange for cash.

If they accepted payments, I wouldn't imagine that it is merely that they caved to selfish financial motivation.

 

[Perfection]

They had to make the accusation to sell their silence, true? Now what if your wife or daughter was raped by the man who bought their silence? I'd think the 'dick move' was enabling the rapist to commit more rapes in exchange for cash.

What if your wife or daughter was raped by a man and she didn't want to relive her experience over and over and over again in a public spectacle. Would have such an attitude towards her?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Take his money and then press charges.

I was just about to write the same. The money is just to compensate the victims personal harm not for justice to be served.

 

[Ryika]

What if your wife or daughter was raped by a man and she didn't want to relive her experience over and over and over again in a public spectacle. Would have such an attitude towards her?

Why one or the other? What if your wife was raped by a man and she didn't want to file charges against him because its so much easier for her to stay silent (and understandably so of course), and then a year later the daughter of both of you gets raped by the same man? Wouldn't you, if you somehow had the knowledge of what would happen a year down the line, want your wife to at least consider the consequences of not coming forward?

Not everybody has the strength to come forward, but those who do should be strongly urged to do so.

 

[timtofly]

My opinion would be, Alec Baldwin is reacting to being called out himself, and whoever agrees with him are not doing it for the same reason he is. But it makes for a nice ethical discussion. He is not making any point. He is just using an ethical point to shift the focus off of himself, and whoever is siding with him, and is as much to blame as the whole of the tyrannical industry, if it is indeed allowed to be swayed by a tyrant that everyone can now plainly see.

The point of it being a settlement though was not that is was just hush money, and the victim accepted a bribe. It was a legal agreement by a court who is just as implicit in not getting to the bottom of justice. And that is the flaw in our justice system, not a problem with a victim being guilty of failing more victims.

 

[Arwon]

I don't think Arwon is saying that one can't express an opinion. He's just noting that your opinion really comes from an unjustified place based on making a bunch of unseemly insinuations on their motivations instead of having the faintest bit of empathy.

You'd think that... but I've already called the Terrible Opinion Police to come arrest Berzerker because that's a thing that happens and very clearly what I meant.