Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Plus this is the last thing australians are going to go for, plus there is (I think) the chinese nuclear submarines to worry about.
Everything except this is a good argument. China has approximately 400 warheads by the best Western analysis, and limited strategic delivery systems (ICBMs only). A good fraction of those are probably tactical. Compared to the United States 9960, they are rather behind. Russia still has about 16,000. China is also actively ignoring developing much of a Navy, and is instead following the Soviet idea of countering the American Navy. It has around 6 nuclear-powered submarines, and so far has only a single ballistic missile submarine, although more are being built.

You're not going to be able to just drop special forces in and blow up their silos regardless, though. It's more that anyone on the other end stupid enough to launch would essentially be sending their return address on the vehicle and whatever they could possibly send, a whole lot more would be coming back.
 
Actually, the US government is wary that the Chinese are developing a blue-water navy.
 
Except if it does it will be to counter the American Navy, because we have an enormous lead in direct application Naval forces, and China's leaders, unlike the bulk of the American Congress, have the foresight to see that we will probably be the next two global superpowers and will likely have opposing goals. So, if your enemy has a large, powerful Navy built on projecting his force abroad, and a massive head start, do you adopt the exact same strategy as him and try to beat him at his own game? No, you set out for the same goal but adopt counter-strategies.

This is why the Soviet Fleet consisted mainly of submarines and surface ships bristling with missiles--to kill American Carrier Groups. The same Carrier groups which could conceivably threaten China. Which is why they aren't building Aircraft Carriers (I am aware of the hulls they have sitting around they bought off the Russians, yes) and are instead building up tactical rocket options, Green Water forces, and now, submarines for Blue Water--to counter American forces. They will not need to build up an actual surface Fleet for some time, if at all, because missiles are much easier to defeat now than they were then, since we've already begun countering that (and have been doing so) with Phalanx, AEGIS, and now lasers, railguns, etc.

This is also a large part of their strategy in building anti-satellite weaponry to deny America a large part of its space advantage, if necessary.

The fact remains the PRC is not just rushing to build up its Navy and has largely neglected doing so. Right now it's much more focused on airpower, since America has been giving the world nice demonstrations of its capabilities for the past decade and a half now.
 
I have neither sufficient time nor the required knowledge to pursue this, but I've been thinking recently that a cool alt-hist would be a world where airplanes were never invented. I don't think WWI would change much, but it might impact WWII in some unique ways, and certainly affect the aftereffects of WWII. I would guess navies would be more important, and we might see less willingless for colonial powers to let their colonies go as they would still need them as naval bases to help project their naval (and thus land) power.
 
Don't see how that would work at all... unless somehow everyone working on it just mysteriously died. Even if it was delayed sufficiently until Zeppelins became mainstream, people would still work on it, because if you've got an internal combustion engine, and you've got airfoils, the idea of putting the two together is just really intuitive.
 
I know there has been some talk of people wanting to do a future or modern NES lately. I wrote this literally years ago when I was a lot more ignorent, and Im sure it has a few (many) holes and is over all not that good or plausable. Its pretty obvious I was thinking in early 20th century terms of warfare here. Still, it might make a decent base to work from, or if someone doesnt care about it being plausable they can feel free to use it anyways.

For the sake of the story lets just assume there is new and insane leadership in China and Pakistan.

We'll ignore nukes too and just assume some way to inhibit their effects was developed or they weren't used for whatever reason. Its really up to anyone who wants to use this to figure this out I guess or change it around.

Spoiler :

Tensions were high, with completley different, but radical leaders in Pakistan, India, China, and the USA. It all started when China, makes a secret deal, with Pakistan, and North Korea. Pakistan would invade India, while North North Korea invades the South, and China, Taiwan. The plan was to overwhelm the USA, who was all ready tied with forces still in Iraq, Afghanistan, and recently Chechnya, after the terrorist there were found to be hiding many top Al quaida operitives.

When the invaison begun, the USA, recognized it's pledge and sent forces to Taiwan, and South Korea, along with Japan, Australia, and New Zealand. China also responded by invading Afghanistan, Mongolia, and many other of its neighbors. Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia joined China, rather then be occupied.

on the Indo-Middle Eastern front, Iran also joined, and sent forces into Iraq, and India. Though the Indians had a much larger army, their forces quickly succumbed to the whirlwind Pakistani-Chinese attack.

In the USA, the war had become extremly unpopular, due to the extremly high casulty rates, and horrible effect on the econemy. When the President and his supporters refused to pull out, the country plunged into civil war, ironically adding to the bloodshed, which it was meant to prevent. Though the USA was technically still at war with China and it's allies, it essentially had pulled out.

The result of the civil war was a victory for the goverment (pro-war), and defeat of the rebels (anti-war), though it wasn't clear cut. The defeated North-Eastern, and Far Western states joined Canada. The victores objected but were too weak to make any move to stop it.

In Asia, China and North Korea made the mistake invading the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin, which it claimed were harboring Japanese bases, this dragged Russia into the war, and at the same time in India, the tide had turned with the Pakistani failure to capture Hydrabad. The Indians managed to advance, and push Pakistan back, while Iran, having territory gains in Iraq, pulled out completley. China now fighting the super power of Russia, while still having failed to completley defeat Japan, and Australia, was forced to pull out of Taiwan. India continued it's advance on South East Asia, and set up non-threatning puppet goverments in all of its occupied nations. the democractic forces in Taiwan also took this as the time to strike back, and invaded the mainland. Almost as soon as troops arrived revolutions broke out across China. With China now in civil war once again between Nationalist and Communist, and North Korea just defeated by the Russians, all the other nations decided their had been enough suffering for one lifetime and the war was over. With a united Korea, a China likley to go back to democracy, a collapsed USA, and India the dominate power in Asia, WWIII was over.


However like every major war, when one conflict stops, there are always issues left unsolved. Back in the USA, the former head of the CIA, managed to take a peice of the US army, and convince them he was the true head of state. In fear of being trailed for treason, he fled to Mexico, where through a bloody coup, he managed to take control of the country. Similar things sprang up all through out Latin America, where CIA agents managed to take control of goverments. Though still independant nations, they formed tight bonds with their former leader located in Mexico City. Eventually all of Latin America and parts of Africa were under their control except Brazil.


In Europe, with the collapse of the USA, and Japan's econemy devestated by war, Germany was the Earth's dominate economic power, and begain asserting its dominance over the European Union, making most nations in it, effective German puppets. It wasn't long before Germany begain transforming its economic power into military power, building up influences in oil rich middle eastern countries, and Africa. However this wasn't enough, and it soon was forced to look to oil and raw material rich Africa and Russia. When Britian declared that German influence and Imperialism were getting too much, they were expelled from the EU, and declared a "rogue state" by Germany.


In south Asia again, though India was still the dominate power, former Pakistan, Iran, and Muslim China, united to keep Islam balanced with Hindu India in the reigon.
 
Ugh....no.....completely non-nonsensical. Why would China invade all those countries randomly without provocation? Mongolia? Why? And China doesn't even have a border with Afghanistan. How would Iran manage to get forces to India? New insane leadership? Sorry that doesn't work....

How would India succumb? It has nuclear weapons you know.... and no we can't ignore them because they are far too important.

And how would the Pakistani's reach Hyderabad? Do you even have any idea where that is? That all the way in the Deccan, a few hundred kilometers north of where I live. To get there Pakistan would need to cross a 1,000 kilometers of land, and they would have to take Delhi, and Bombay....which is ridiculous.

Pakistan wouldn't be able to get 10 km beyond the border.

None of it makes sense...at all....

The only reason China would ever invade Taiwan is if they declared independence. And even then that would likely be a limited action along the lines of a missile and air strike. There would be no massive invasion.
 
China does border Afghanistan

Do you honestly believe that strip of land will be sufficient for China to invade? :rolleyes: And I strongly doubt the fundamentalists in the region will appreciate a Chinese invasion.....
 
I was just showing you were wrong actually. The logical thing for them to do would be to go through Tajikistan.
 
Why would the U.S. have a civil war? Also, I know alot of people in Northern California who despises Canada with a deeper passion than J eps hates the Detroit Red Wings, and then some more.
 
Im not going to waste my time giving detailed explanations of something I said needed cleaning up and admitted wasn't that good. I simply put it out there. It could always give someone ideas...And its not like there has never been an implausible NES.
 
Actually its already lead me to think of something...What about a scenario were you push this back to the 1960s or 70s basically. An American-Chinese war back when both countries pretty much did have insane leadership....What would the Soviet Union due? Again maybe if you can tie India and Pakistan into it you can make it even more interesting.

Sorry about the double post.
 
bombshoo, at that point the USSR is more likely to invade China than vice versa. And LBJ was not insane, he was rather sane and a very shrewed politician.
 
bombshoo, at that point the USSR is more likely to invade China than vice versa. And LBJ was not insane, he was rather sane and a very shrewed politician.


I wasn't thinking about the president actually...More about some of the Military and CIA men doing something on their own that could cause a war...And I didn't say China would invade the USSR, I just wondered if the USSR would intervene if the USA and China went to war.
 
Hmm....with a Ottoman Empire looking east would they be able to stop European expansion into the Indian Ocean? In OTL they fought against the Portuguese allied with Gujurat and other local states. Here if they concentrated more on this area there could be an Ottoman dominated Indian Ocean.
I was thinking along these lines, yes. I was thinking that this would also cause Portugal to focus greater on the Americas while the Spanish are greatly weakened and refocused in TTL and thus unable to compete.
At least temporarily, yes. And Israelite did mention a more naval focus for them here. But in any case Basrah would be very useful in establishing Ottoman domination.
Good point. I was trying to think of if and how a Kara Koyunlu v. Ottomans clash would occur. I was thinking that Basrah might not be taken or be taken by the Temurids, but as you point out it would be invaluable in terms of acces to the Indian Ocean trade.
Hmm, they probably would also introduce stronger central power in Egypt in that case.
Glad your thinking along the same lines.

Oh, and Azale, I would appreciate it if you kept the little tastes about the Ottomans that I gave you to yourself for now. Don't want the spoil the surprise for the rest of 'em, now do we? ;)
 
@bombshoo, my bad...I mean to say that USSR vs China is many times more likely to happen than China vs USA. Perhaps something interesting could be salvaged from THAT scenario?

@israelite, I've been biting my tongue :p
 
@bombshoo, my bad...I mean to say that USSR vs China is many times more likely to happen than China vs USA. Perhaps something interesting could be salvaged from THAT scenario?

@israelite, I've been biting my tongue :p

I've thought about it and tinkered with the idea..But before I go too far, anyone actually ever write an alt hist where MacArthur got what he wanted and bombed China? Did the US and USSR have enough bombs at this point to cause a nuclear holocaust if war had happend? Also anyone know if Dewey had been elected instead of Truman would he have been much more like to let MacArthur go ahead with attacking?
 
Why would the U.S. have a civil war? Also, I know alot of people in Northern California who despises Canada with a deeper passion than J eps hates the Detroit Red Wings, and then some more.

You obviously dont know me. Not only do I hold grudges against them, and their players, but their former players as well (I hate bertuzzi about 2x more now that he played in Detroit, and therefore carry over that hate to a team I started to like, Anaheim, and hate them too now :()

but thats of topic. ON TOPIC:

US vs China could only work during Korea IF Stalin continued avoiding Mao (at first when Mao went to discuss the Sino-Soviet treaty of friendship, Stalin made up excuses on why he couldnt see him. If Sino-Soviet relations soured early, during stalin's time, US could theoreticly act against China during the Korean War.)
 
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