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Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Dachs, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    In any case, I don't have the time for this right now; will have more time for this and anything else in this forum after the 19th or earlier.
     
  2. Yui108

    Yui108 Deity

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    Who thinks the Third Crusade would have been a pushover for the Franks if they hadn't lost Barbarossa?
     
  3. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    It certainly would have been a lot easier whenever they had any actual fighting, but the primary obstacle to capturing Jerusalem was logistical. I don't see how that would be made any easier by having a larger number of men...:mischief:

    Having said that, I'm sure there are a few places that have seen speculation on this point. For an...interesting take on it, see the Unholy Roman Empire.
     
  4. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    As long as you can correct any stat mistakes I make, the TL can wait until later this month.
     
  5. Kal'thzar

    Kal'thzar Deity

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    claim down for the Aussies. Unless someone else REALLY wants them :p
     
  6. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    Micro-update: Ruleset draft is done. Map is 65% done. Starting stats. Preview thread isn't far away.
     
  7. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    Finally, the restoration of this thread's rightful purpose. :)
     
  8. andis-1

    andis-1 The Hedgehog

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    thar you go.
     
  9. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    Neither of those are the official names of the countries :p
     
  10. andis-1

    andis-1 The Hedgehog

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    Irrelevant. You can still tell which nations on the map I'm going to claim.
     
  11. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Still busy, so here are two ancient Greek things to distract you.

    Ancient Greek Thing the First: What Would Alcibiades Do If Given An Second Umpteenth Chance?

    You can't keep a bad man down. Suppose he escaped that day and reached the Persian court, or, perhaps more interestingly, went into hiding, I suspect he might very well have done a lot within the intrigue-driven Persian political system, perhaps moreso than many other famous Greeks who did fine there too. All in all, I suspect he would've ended up taking an active part in court or (again, perhaps more interestingly) provincial intrigues, possibly using any old contacts he might still have to assemble a mercenary army and so maybe becoming an independent force. He would've probably failed in the end, but many things in those little Persian civil wars were up to chance, since by this time nobody really had a strong and secure support base and on the other hand most people involved (meaning both local elites and Persian satraps) were fairly pragmatic and in some cases willing to win over and accept former enemies.

    One option that particularly catches my fancy is Alcibiades somehow ending up in Egypt, coming into the trust of the satrap or one of the nomarchs, waiting for/arranging an uprising and taking charge of a Greek mercenary army as described above (pretty easy in Egypt, anyway), then overthrowing the new pharaoh and taking Egypt for himself. Then there are many other things he could do (or get chased further out into the ecumene trying), although I suppose he won't have that much time left by then even without taking the hazards of the profession into account.

    Ancient Greek Thing the Second: Lysander. And, more broadly, the question of whether Spartan hegemony could've been preserved by means of a coup d'etat, imposition of some kind of (monarchic?) tyranny and radical reforms. I agree that it would've been difficult; the only way to create a lasting Spartan Empire was to thoroughly and ruthlessly destroy, marginalise or remove many key Spartan institutions (what is good for a polis is not good for an empire, and Lysander seems to have understood that full well, as had some other Spartans), which could only have been accomplished fast enough by force (the natural evolution that happened in OTL was both too long and mostly harmful), hence the need for a coup d'etat. There were, to my knowledge, several conspiracies in the late 5th-early 4th centuries BC, but a conspiracy led by Lysander (whether there really was one in OTL or not) would seem to have the highest chances for success and then maybe he could at least combine his de facto personal hegemony over many conquered cities with tyranny over Sparta. Not sure as to what he could do after that; apart from the inevitable clash with the ephors and the gerousia, legalising money and using his wealth to bribe the poorer Spartans, and introducing full private property on land and establishing Spartan colonies in strategic positions and subjugated cities to house any suddenly pauperised Spartans come to mind.
     
  12. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Oooh, Greeks.

    I like the Lysandros thing better than Alkibiades, because I'm still not wholly convinced of his - Alkibiades' - overall competence. I suppose that makes him better for the adventurer lifestyle anyway. ;) Independent Hellenoegyptian kingdom is always something to shoot for, of course, whatever its longevity might have been.

    But Lysandros is cool. Kleomenes-but-a-little-earlier sounds great to me, of course. :p Could you be a bit clearer on "guarantee of private property" - is this basically the reform bill that Agis IV had the other Lysandros introduce, or is it something different entirely? Also, what'd be the end of this whole experiment - establishing a kind of Spartan hegemony over southern, central, and Ionian Greece? With a view towards...:mischief:
     
  13. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Alcibiades was more unpredictable than competent, it's what makes him such a treasure-trove for us althistorians.

    By guaranteeing private property on land, I mean streamlining the historical evolution of Spartan landed property. The restrictions on gifting and willing, (and later buying and selling) lands died away slowly enough in the subsequent period, but the idea of removing those restrictions was around in Lysander's time.

    The goal is, ofcourse, the Spartan Empire in central and southern Greece, Ionia and beyond. Sicily and Asia Minor (see Agesilaus and the creation of Spartan cavalry; cavalry would be the vital prerequisite for any successful "land wars in Asia") beckon. The increasingly uppity Spartan generals of the immediately following period (again, see the reign of Agesilaus) establishing Asian dynasties would be a welcome bonus.
     
  14. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    What about the Persians? Would losing all or part of Asia Minor possibly help them at all, in terms of a geopolitical shock to spur them into action? I think southern Greece - Taras, natch - would also be a great target for Spartan generals to go rogue...:D Is there any plausible way to combine these two schemes?
     
  15. bombshoo

    bombshoo Never mind...

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    I completely skipped over this and thought my post simply was ignored. I do like your 2nd option. What if we had Seward elected President instead of Lincoln (for whatever reason) and the USA does go through with annexing Cuba and occupying Santo Domingo....With Cuba already having slavery, I don't see Seward trying to remove it initially and we might end up with the Southerners willing to reach a compromise. If the issue were put off long enough of course, there might eventually be strong enough abolitionist sentiments in other countries that we would see the South having to dissolve it without war. Another question I suppose would be if the war were put off how would the Napoleon III react once the USA shows it is willing to enforce the Monroe Doctrine.
     
  16. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Well, you don't need to elect Seward...I dunno if he could have acquired the support of both the radicals and the moderates in the Republican Party with Greeley opposing him and with his political history. Lincoln would be fine - he just has to give the thumbs-up. I mostly agree with the later course of events. :)
     
  17. Abaddon

    Abaddon Deity

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    NES/FG/SF Activity:Arguing the toss

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