Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

That would be funny. I also officially hate NK for telling me what to do with the eco centers, because it requires even more work...but...it's so addictive...
das said:
Actually, small countries can sometimes add to volatility and versatility in a given region, and generally make cold wars (or, more appropriately, great games) more fun.
Yeah - I'm playing one right now - but I mean really small countries. :p
 
I believe das is right about them all referring to themselves as Catholics, but I'm not 100%. As for names, I suggest (for the homoiousiai) he Ekklesia Kataramen?n or, even better, the Church of the Latter Day Kataramene.

In any case, it looks like a riveting starting point for an NES. There are many, many enemies of the True Church what need destructionatin'.
 
Still, I think that Trinitarian might be a nice and fairly original epithet.

We accept not what is novel, but only what has been handed down to us.

I believe das is right about them all referring to themselves as Catholics, but I'm not 100%.

You're right, I just found it in the Confession of Sirmium (351 CE), first anathema, "But those who say that the Son was from nothing or from other subsistence and not from God, and that there was time or age when He was not, the Holy and Catholic Church regards as aliens. "

As for names, I suggest (for the homoiousiai) he Ekklesia Kataramen?n or, even better, the Church of the Latter Day Kataramene.

Not bad but you mispelled a word, it should be Katartison not Kataramenon.
 
I believe das is right about them all referring to themselves as Catholics, but I'm not 100%.

See "Orthodox Catholic Eastern church". Incidentally, is it just me or is that an oxymoron?
 
Ok it is time I start my own Alt-Hist. I had the idea to do something around the Second Mexican Empire. Any ideas?
 
Ok it is time I start my own Alt-Hist. I had the idea to do something around the Second Mexican Empire. Any ideas?
That sounds vaguely like what I did to get the DaNES result. :p
 
I never read it. So :(. Well I guess I will need something else.
Mine was along the more vague lines of an earlier ACW end forcing Napoleon III to abandon his Mexican project earlier and instead focus on Europe. There's really no way you can get the Second Mexican Empire to survive without also allowing for the survival of the Confederacy, and that is a crime against humanity what's been done way too many times.
 
Delurk: Anyone ever consider trying to do something with the First Mexican Empire?
 
Delurk: Anyone ever consider trying to do something with the First Mexican Empire?
Not that I recall; certainly it would be possible for Iturbide to maintain power but it may be difficult for him to hold on; even if he did, a defeat by the United States (which is almost but not quite certain) would shatter the monarchy and cause the secession of the south as earlier in OTL. If you could ensure its survival and perhaps through inspired military leadership maintenance of California and Texas, it would make for some very interesting dynamics in the Americas, but influence outside Europe might be somewhat limited for awhile without butterfly weather or somesuch.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of having a European Monarch take up the offer, as Iturbide was a good general (possibly one capable of pulling off those victories to hold the Empire together), but not really suited to be head of state.

I've also read somewhere about an agreement with the Spanish whereby Mexico would pay for their lands, in hard currency. Supposedly this caused Mexico to become independent as a bankrupt nation, and I'm considering setting a PoD before then. I haven't found any other mention of it, and can't find the original. Anyone else know anything?
 
I've also read somewhere about an agreement with the Spanish whereby Mexico would pay for their lands, in hard currency. Supposedly this caused Mexico to become independent as a bankrupt nation, and I'm considering setting a PoD before then. I haven't found any other mention of it, and can't find the original. Anyone else know anything?

I think you might be confusing Mexico with Haiti, which had to pay 150 million francs to France. Though I freely admit to not knowing much Mexican history, so maybe they had to pay something as well.
 
Well I am not the genius of alternate history as some of you might claim to be. But I would really like my POD to be in the late 18th or early 19th century. If it can't be the second Mexican Empire. Any ideas on things that haven't been done?
 
Late 18th/early 19th century is particularily rich in the terms of feasible divergences, as one might expect. You should narrow down your querry. ;)

If we are to focus on making Mexico a feasible great power, for example, here is one possible way:
- For various reasons, the USA in the early 19th century are more battle-hardened, aggressive and militaristic. Throw in some additional border conflicts since 1783; in addition to the usual Indians, probably some fighting with Britain in the Great Lakes region, also a Spansh-American War in the early 19th century, with an armed conquest of Louisiana and Florida. Some things that are probably redundant but might make this better: have the Legion of the United States survive on the grounds of general awesomeness (as well as appropriateness for the battle-hardened theme; clearly militias just won't do!) and have the Hamiltonian Federalists - possibly even the man himself - take power (their Anglophilia might be problematic, but either it or they will cease to be relevant by the time the important part comes). The basic idea is to have a meaner and more militarily-efficient USA.
- Later in the Napoleonic Wars, have the various difficulties with Britain plus apparent possibility to land-grab while Britain is busy lead to a war over Canada. Ideally it will bog down; the Americans will make limited gains, but fail to conquer all of it; the British, meanwhile, will be forced to dump more resources there as opposed to Europe.
- France still will lose the Napoleonic Wars, but: a) it will be later, b) they will probably be able to bleed Spain even whiter (whether in a drawn-out and increasingly brutal war or by subjugating it more succesfully and then using the Spanish as cannon fodder when things get more desperate) and c) Britain will play a much less significant part and generally will have less influence, with the Holy Alliance becoming more hegemonic (an interesting tangent in and of itself; without the strong British influence to opposite it, the Holy Alliance might achieve more in Europe itself, but it is also likely that it will get pulled apart earlier, probably into Prusso-Russian and Austro-French blocs). This is important because now Britain will both want and have to focus more on America.
- The war in Canada will then end in limited American territorial gains in the south, and Britain holding out further in the north (this may not even be the most plausible outcome, but it's possible and it fits in, so let's go with that). Anglo-American rivalry grows ever worse; the OTL cooperation on the Monroe Doctrine is naturally out of question, not to mention useless. With the Holy Alliance conspiring against itself and Spain being way too devastated to do anything about this, the Latin American colonies break away far more easily without having to fight off the huge Spanish reinforcements. At which point an Anglo-American cold war will commence in the former Spanish territories, especially as the revolutionary enthusiasm fades and the early states begin to enter crisis. The early power struggles will see the various factions align with either Britain or the USA.
- Anyway, we finally get to Mexico. In this world, it will not be nearly as war-torn or unstable as in OTL, having won the independence war far earlier. That said, the big, mean, expansionist USA is just plain scary and after the early radicals die out or get overthrown, the Mexican ruling elite will inevitably turn towards Britain. And Britain will eagerly turn towards Mexico, because it's well-positioned to halt further American expansion, in theory. And so we get massive British investments and other help for the Mexicans.
- Incidentally, without a prolonged independence war to help develop caudillism and elevate men like Iturbide and Santa Anna (as well as weaken the bourgoise), power after the radicals will probably fall to the moderate pragmaticians; I even have a name for you, Lucas Alaman, who in OTL was Anglophilic, comparatively sound economically and opposed to American expansion; he was apparently able to slow down the American immigration into Texas in OTL somewhat. He also had a grand industrialisation plan, which, while implausible otherwise, should work out pretty well with British investments. Also, a more war-torn and increasingly oppressive Europe should provide a liberal and rapidly developing Mexico with lots of more... reliable immigrants that would be used to counterbalance the Americans in the frontier regions.

Could a lot of stuff go wrong? Certainly. But this is probably one of the best ways to allow for a reasonably powerful Mexico with such a late PoD. With admittedly major luck it will be able to hold on to its territories, industrialise succesfully and, towards the late 19th century, become a great power in its own right, though probably still an ally of Britain. I could elaborate further on this if you want, as there are lots of highly interesting geopolitical and colonial developments to consider here, amongst other things.

I realise that this might be a bit too detailed, but you may consider it a loose guideline. The problem is that it's hard to write something realistic about super-Mexico; there are few ways to do it right.
 
It doesn't have to be a super mexico but it should contribute to a greater over all divergence.
 
Well, what I suggested would do that. ;)

Really, though, most of the best stuff for this period is in America, France and Russia. Other palces are rich too, but those are simply the best, if only because of the various real and potential political evolutions which would've been far harder to pull off in, say, Britain. And it is needless to explain how major (or even fairly minor if you do it right) changes in the USA, France or Russia would affect the rest of the world.
 
- Incidentally, without a prolonged independence war to help develop caudillism and elevate men like Iturbide and Santa Anna (as well as weaken the bourgoise), power after the radicals will probably fall to the moderate pragmaticians; I even have a name for you, Lucas Alaman, who in OTL was Anglophilic, comparatively sound economically and opposed to American expansion; he was apparently able to slow down the American immigration into Texas in OTL somewhat. He also had a grand industrialisation plan, which, while implausible otherwise, should work out pretty well with British investments. Also, a more war-torn and increasingly oppressive Europe should provide a liberal and rapidly developing Mexico with lots of more... reliable immigrants that would be used to counterbalance the Americans in the frontier regions.

Nah, not till very late in the 19th century anyway, and it would still be less than good industrialisation for numerous reasons. Also a US that turns against Britain will be weaker due to lack of invest and the negative effect on their huge mercent marine.

A possible idea to boost mexico would be having the US enact some rather more severe anti-catholic laws, thus seeing the great 19th century emigrations more directed towards South America.
 
Also a US that turns against Britain will be weaker due to lack of invest and the negative effect on their huge mercent marine.

What makes USA weaker makes "super"-Mexico stronger. ;)

I suppose that decent industrialisation would be hard to pull off, but surely Mexico was not completely beyond hope.
 
What's with the super-Mexico thing? I just wanted to consider a possible survival of the First Empire, and possibly one strong enough to upset the Monroe Doctrine, making a far more interesting Americas.

Most of what I know about Europe is post-Congress of Vienna, which is why I didn't want to make many major changes to the Napoleonic Wars.
 
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