Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Well, a conflict over China seems obvious enough, if the Americans were to have stronger influence there (possibly either due to or leading towards an earlier revolution?) they would've naturally clashed with both Germany and Britain, while possibly bringing in the Japanese and/or the Chinese government, especially if it is a republican one, in on their side.

That said, Disenfrancised's comment about a more aggressive USA and a lack of an Anglo-American concord leading to European powers being more proactive in Latin America might be the key to what we want here as well; when the Americans begin their economical expansion, they will inevitably clash with whatever European interests have prevailed in the key regions of Latin America, and that will be a pretty good reason for such a war.
 
Following the devastation of the earthquake, some in government considered the possibility of moving the capital elsewhere. Possible candidates suggested for the new capital included Himeji and Gyeongseong (Keijo in Japanese; present-day Seoul), which was under Japanese rule at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923_Great_Kanto_earthquake

So what would the effect have been if the Japanese capital had been moved to Seoul?
 
One idea might be to move in there with the entire central bureaucracy and their families, and push the non-essential and/or non-Japanised Koreans out into the slums. But yes, it's a pretty unlikely plan.
 
Do you think it would have resulted in any significant geo-political impact or change in Japanese policy? Maybe more development and integration of Korea leading to more intreast in the mainland leading to a much stronger and more organized attempt to properly take China and less importance given to the navy?

@das do you intend to mod that 1900 NES the one where the Serbs own Constantinople, and there's a crusader state in Lanka?
 
@das do you intend to mod that 1900 NES the one where the Serbs own Constantinople, and there's a crusader state in Lanka?
Last time I checked, his Middle East 1000 BC project was taking precedence over the NES2 VII idea.
 
Last time I checked, his Middle East 1000 BC project was taking precedence over the NES2 VII idea.

Darn. That scenario sounded interesting.
 
Last time I checked, his Middle East 1000 BC project was taking precedence over the NES2 VII idea.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
 
PoD-of-the-Day #e (29 February 2008): Because I was recently rereading The Peace of Nicias and the Sicilian Expedition, I decided to develop a certain idea that has been thrown around a bit. The Battle of Mantinea (418 BC) goes differently; the elite Argive hoplites charge the gap in the Spartan lines, and the Lacedaemonian army is broken up and smashed, with King Agis II barely rallying the remnants to retreat back to Laconia. This, I believe, is a much better moment to elevate Alcibiades' rising star than the Sicilian Expedition, because of the geopolitical error made in attacking Syracuse in the first place. With this success, and because the Argives will receive four thousand more troops following the successful conclusion of the battle (in OTL they arrived too late and were only able to defend the Argolis itself from the victorious Spartans) they will be able to follow up this victory. Alcibiades, being present at the scene, will be able to win accolades as he pretty much shatters the Peace of Nicias but wins serious advantages in its place. From Pylos the Athenians will be able to provoke a helot revolt in Messenia and detach that from the seriously weakened Spartans; the Spartans will likely as not be forced to come to terms with the Athenian and Argive-led democratic Peloponnesian alliance that was only just coming together by the time of the battle itself. Perhaps they will need to fight another battle, but by this time the opportunistic Athenians will have sent more aid to the victorious Argives and the two will actually outnumber the Spartans due to the losses from the Archidamian War and from the recent Battle of Mantinea. They will also lose manpower in order to make up for the loss of their helots. Sparta will need to end the war, likely by 416 BC, and will lose quite a few major concessions (this is the most danger Sparta has been in throughout the course of the war), such as splitting off from Corinth and Thebes (the dissolution of the Peloponnesian League was one of the major Athenian war aims) and ceasing the Spartan intercourse with the Macedonians, so the Athenians can recover the Chalcidice and their posts in Thrace. Finally, Messenia will be detached from Sparta so as to weaken the Lacedaemonians and to serve as a cordon sanitaire to wall them off from the rest of Greece, along with Tegea and the Argolis itself. The end result with respect to Sparta is that it will be severely weakened, just like it was after the 371 Battle of Leuctra and the 362 Battle of Mantinea (!), and likely unable to exert major influence in Greece proper with the loss of the critical Messenian territories.

As for Alcibiades, he will have major political weight following his brokering of the replacement for the Peace of Nicias. Nicias himself will have been politically outmaneuvered and will likely lose his post as the leader of the "peace" faction. With this new victory, Alcibiades himself will reach the position of a new Pericles as "First Citizen", vanquisher of Sparta, succeeding where even his illustrious adoptive father could not. We will likely see some Caesarism from him, but blatantly abolishing the democracy will not work; it took defeat at Syracuse and revolt in the empire to drive the Athenians to the revolution of the Four Hundred. Overt rule by one man is just too unlikely at this juncture. With his political power, though, Alcibiades can play the democracy into getting what he wants by ostensibly submitting his decision to the people.

He will have ample opportunity over the next few years to exercise it. The five years between 415 and 410 are probably going to be spent reclaiming the valuable Thracian portion of the empire and mending relations with the Macedonians. The Chalcidice has lots of wood, after all, and ships need wood. While Sicily will be slowly dominated by Syracuse, it will not be extending its power very quickly. Athens will have plenty of opportunities to intervene there. Without the distraction of Sparta and with the incompetent Nicias discredited, Alcibiades may well be able to seize Syracuse and subordinate the greater party of the Sicilian breadbasket. Megala Hellas has a good chance of falling into the Athenian lap after that. As for Greece itself, Corinth and Thebes, while detached from the Spartan alliance, will still not particularly like Athens. Athens will be a catalyst for another alliance between those two states (Sparta is likely going to be too weak to act in the near future with any sort of success; Argos and Messenia will be able to keep it in check anyhow). Meanwhile, the Great King never much liked Athens, and it will be getting too powerful again. Tissaphernes will be unleashed against the Athenians to aid the Corinthians and the Thebans, probably in the middle 400s.

Now, Thebes and Corinth together aren't that weak at all, and with Persian assistance they could make trouble. Corinth does have a respectable navy after all, and they could try to raise Cain with the Persians in the Athenian Empire. But frankly, Athens' navy just has too much of a lead on her enemies for them to be able to win significant successes. At the same time, she has Alcibiades, a general of no small skill, at her head, and his comrades Thrasybulus and Demosthenes (who wouldn't, of course, die at Syracuse) as generals as well. Thrasybulus in particular is one of the greatest military minds in the world at this juncture (look at the OTL victories of Cyzicus and Arginusae) and will be able to beat up on Tissaphernes. In Boeotia itself, Thebes is sort of bereft of any good generals, and at the same time will be menaced from the rear by Athens' empire in Aetolia and Acarnania, and the Athenian ally of Thessaly. We'd have a war of maneuver between the Corinthians and the Athenians around the Megarid and Mount Cithaeron. Athens has a central position, though, and they do have superior generals. We might even be able to get Iphicrates in there. Athens also is able to draw on Thracian light infantry from her conquests in the Chalcidice and on the Thracian coast. Since in a one-on-one fight, peltasts > hoplites (see OTL Battle of Lechaeum), Athens should be able to get the upper hand here as well. The Greek front will be closed by 395 BC, while the Persian war will probably drag on longer. Athens will maintain her position in Ionia with her impressive navy, and perhaps will be able to seize Cyprus, which liked to revolt around this time. In any event, Persia will probably have a redux of the fifth century war with Athens, with the war slowly petering out after a few decades.

This Athenian Empire will not survive for ever, though. Megala Hellas will be pure hell to hold on to, especially with Carthage regaining her power around this time, for example. Athens has much better experience at maintaining hegemony than the Spartans or the Thebans did, so it will last quite a bit longer than either of theirs did, especially since it is a thalassocracy with the attendant good chances for survival that has. If a proper genius ascends to the post of First Citizen in the next few years, Athens, not Macedon, could take advantage of the extremely weakened state that Persia is in, establishing a sort of hegemony over Anatolia, the Levant, and Egypt, because those areas are profitable and close to the sea. Darius III's compromise very well could work, with the Persians getting about the stuff that Parthia used to have. Greek influence will be much less widespread, especially in Persia itself, but in the areas that Athens does grab, it will probably be more concentrated. No Hellenistic Kingdoms this time around, probably, unless Egypt breaks away. In the meantime, we have Rome off to the west, starting to get powerful, and when they beat the Samnites and run up against the Athenians' protectorates in Megala Hellas/Magna Graecia, things could get interesting, and Carthage may be able to pick up some of the pieces.

Thoughts? Comments? Death threats for this not being part of the TL I'm writing? (:p)
 
I damn you because you don't update your main TL, but this is awesome! He can be good even for a NES
 
I damn you because you don't update your main TL, but this is awesome! He can be good even for a NES
Thanks, I think, but could you be more constructive? :) This is just an idea and a mental dump, and it'd be great if there were some comments about likelihood, arguments having to do with the Syracuse expedition vs. Mantinea as a political gain for Alcibiades, etc. I never was good at long-term planning either so if someone were to help flesh that out that'd be nice too.
 
I'm not vert good at doing althistories, so I don't have any suggestion...maybe during the Persian(with allies)-Athenian war, the spartans would attack Athens team upping with Persians...
 
This, I believe, is a much better moment to elevate Alcibiades' rising star than the Sicilian Expedition, because of the geopolitical error made in attacking Syracuse in the first place.

Had it been successful it would've helped Alcibiades much, much more than Mantinea ever could have; a more or less conservative land battle would ultimately favour Alcibiades' enemies more, I'd expect. Still, in the short term there are advantages to be ripped and this is less risky than Sicily.

With this new victory, Alcibiades himself will reach the position of a new Pericles as "First Citizen", vanquisher of Sparta, succeeding where even his illustrious adoptive father could not.

The problem with Alcibiades is, I really don't think that anyone will let him do that peacefully no matter what he accomplishes. And this is why the Sicilian Expedition was the better option; had it been a huge success, he would've had a base of operations there and could've moved on Athens effectively, whereas in this case he is well within reach of his political opponents.

I suppose that he could attain a great degree of power for a time, but eventually he'll get expelled like many other great Athenian generals that grew too powerful. Specifically, he will get overthrown either after too big a success or the smallest of failures.

establishing a sort of hegemony over Anatolia, the Levant, and Egypt, because those areas are profitable and close to the sea.

Egypt is doable (although a puppet ruler, or even just an ally willing to grant lots and lots of concessions, is much more reasonable and likely; besides, I've grown rather fond of late pre-Hellenic Egypt, and it would be very interesting to see how an independent, native-ruled but clearly Greek-influenced Egypt might develop), but Anatolia and the Levant seem unlikely. A much better land army is needed to subjugate those, and neither the Lydians nor the Phoenicians got along with the Athenians particularly well. I don't think they could do it. Or would - large land areas filled with hostile tribes and cities aren't something a thalassocracy would want to control, regardless of their resources, especially as Egypt can more than replace Anatolia with regards to food supply.

Personally I see a longer-lasting Athenian empire predominant in central Greece into the 4th century BC, Macedon ultimately rearing its head regardless but being unable to advance nearly as well as in OTL (for now?), Egypt as an independent and pro-Greek kingdom, the Achaemenid Empire steadily decaying and retreating while its satraps assume more and more power (especially in Anatolia; alternatively, the Macedonians might conquer that even without Greece, though in that case the Athenians will intervenne there as well; I predict a cold war/great game), and more or less what you said about the west.
 
Sicilian power politics will soon get very interesting.

Ironically enough, I can eventually see a Romano-Carthaginian alliance against the Athenian dominated Greek colonies, centered around the pretensions of Taras and company who will rally around Athenian naval support if it still exists, since both Rome and Carthage were ruled by a fairly conservative, protectionist group of senators circa First Punic War times. Though purely interested in maintaining a commercial empire and hegemony in Latium, respectively, below the surface both will find common cause in taking the Italy and Sicily for themselves.

If Egypt, once conquered by Persia, can be detatched by an Athenian alliance with the native population, I could easily see a Grecophilic line of pharoahs coming to power. Not too different from the Ptolemies, except a little more native, since they'd eventually be a power in their own right, and the degree of connection to Athens will be tenuous at best.
 
Okay, I have a somewhat crazy idea, but it might be fun.

Instead of a Guess-the-PoD map, a MAKE the PoD map. For example, I'll create a (plausible) map, let's say circa 1880, with completely or mostly althistorical nations, and set a general era of divergence, like Early Medieval.

Then, we try to build a timeline that fits with the final product. It's kind of reverse-engineering the alternate history process, but would anyone be interested?
 
I would love to help from what it sounds like.

I also have a question about where and when to start, because it seems I always am unable to do so without it seeming wrong or out of place. I wish someone could give me advice on how to change that please.
 
What ever happened to a build the map for the timeline? That sounded fun.
Presumably all the people interested are supposed to have been working on their maps since the POD was declared.
 
Ironically enough, I can eventually see a Romano-Carthaginian alliance

Obviously. They were more or less friendly early on in OTL. The possibility of such an alliance (aimed most usually against Athens or some other Greek thalassocracy) has been brought up in previous threads every now and then.

If Egypt, once conquered by Persia, can be detatched by an Athenian alliance with the native population, I could easily see a Grecophilic line of pharoahs coming to power. Not too different from the Ptolemies, except a little more native, since they'd eventually be a power in their own right, and the degree of connection to Athens will be tenuous at best.

As previously implied, look up the Sais Dynasty. Its fall is the only thing the Achaemenids did that I truly regret, but if Egypt were to be restored it would inevitably go by a similar path.

Then, we try to build a timeline that fits with the final product. It's kind of reverse-engineering the alternate history process, but would anyone be interested?

Cuivienen tried to do it once. Didn't work out, but might be worth a try if you're up to it yourself.

I also have a question about where and when to start, because it seems I always am unable to do so without it seeming wrong or out of place. I wish someone could give me advice on how to change that please.

How about you try and work something detailed out, and the rest of us will viciously attack you offer constructive criticism? :p That's really the only way for us to genuinely help you.

Presumably all the people interested are supposed to have been working on their maps since the POD was declared.

Sorry, I decided to work out the timeline in my head in at least some detail, but keep lagging down. Still, some progress has been made.
 
I have some completely random map I've been working on for no reason so I could post it and you could try to make a timelien out of my non-nonsensicalness.
 
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