Do you think that there is any realistic way possible, for a large Jewish missionary effort, around the time of the Grecio Persian wars, to be able to reach and convert a large amount and/or be a major player in East Asia, and China?
Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
human-slaughter
brand new year
OOC: I can already see the criticism that may come from this as it has to do with current events and post-modern events but this is for my pure enjoyment and perhaps flesh out some ideas for a post-modern NES. Enjoy!
Alternate History: The Coming of the Horsemen
Part 1 – The World Undone
The year is 2012 and the world’s seams are fraying and threatening to come undone.
January 20th 2009 Barack Obama of the United States of America is sworn in, as the 44th President, with his Vice President Hillary Clinton. But that was 3 years ago. Only today are the effects of the president’s years in office showing themselves.
Prior to the United States Elections of 2008 insurgent attacks in Iraq had plummeted marking a time of unpleasant and weary silence in the region. Then President George W. Bush called for rollbacks in his 2007 Troop Surge declaring it had been a success while pointing at the statistics in the region. Presidential candidate in 2008 Sen. John McCain called the victory “A victory for the World and Democracy.” However Democrats across the nation criticized the administration for too little action too late. The presidential Candidate for the Democrats Sen. Obama called for complete withdrawal from Iraq claiming that now would be the time to allow the Iraqi’s to prove their strength.
The American people found themselves more equally divided then ever. Sen. Obama in 2008 took former adversary Sen. Hillary Clinton as his running mate, National media calling it the “Dream Ticket”. The nickname stuck, proving its truth when voters in record numbers selected the Democratic “Dream Ticket” over Sen. McCain and Gov. Huckabee.
In 2009 Congress passed the Iraqi Peace Declaration that signified the end of a 6-½ year war. Rollbacks in Coalition troops began immediately. With the final troops leaving before 2010. Amid chaos and civil war the American government abandoned the fledgling Iraqi Government. Despite weak leadership and an untrained militia police force the Iraqi Government did not fight the withdrawal of American Troops and rather welcomed the chance to prove themselves.
Great technological and scientific advances also marked the year 2010. Dr. Jefferson Ravenwood of Biomed of America was successful in advancing the field in nanotechnology and the use of these “Nanos” in ways only dreamed of in Science Fiction. With the new technology the center of military attention from all over the world places of lawlessness are free to stagnate and evolve into war zones.
Part 2 - PMC's and the War Zones
Preview: The dynamics of the evolving war zones is revealed. The Middle East, Africa, Balkans, South America and South East Asia are all run by the war economy and the never ending struggle between rebel factions and Private Military Companies.
Alternate History: The Coming of the Horsemen
Part 1 – The World Undone
The year is 2012 and the world’s seams are fraying and threatening to come undone.
January 20th 2009 Barack Obama of the United States of America is sworn in, as the 44th President, with his Vice President Hillary Clinton. But that was 3 years ago. Only today are the effects of the president’s years in office showing themselves.
Prior to the United States Elections of 2008 insurgent attacks in Iraq had plummeted marking a time of unpleasant and weary silence in the region. Then President George W. Bush called for rollbacks in his 2007 Troop Surge declaring it had been a success while pointing at the statistics in the region. Presidential candidate in 2008 Sen. John McCain called the victory “A victory for the World and Democracy.” However Democrats across the nation criticized the administration for too little action too late. The presidential Candidate for the Democrats Sen. Obama called for complete withdrawal from Iraq claiming that now would be the time to allow the Iraqi’s to prove their strength.
The American people found themselves more equally divided then ever. Sen. Obama in 2008 took former adversary Sen. Hillary Clinton as his running mate, National media calling it the “Dream Ticket”. The nickname stuck, proving its truth when voters in record numbers selected the Democratic “Dream Ticket” over Sen. McCain and Gov. Huckabee.
In 2009 Congress passed the Iraqi Peace Declaration that signified the end of a 6-½ year war. Rollbacks in Coalition troops began immediately. With the final troops leaving before 2010. Amid chaos and civil war the American government abandoned the fledgling Iraqi Government. Despite weak leadership and an untrained militia police force the Iraqi Government did not fight the withdrawal of American Troops and rather welcomed the chance to prove themselves.
Great technological and scientific advances also marked the year 2010. Dr. Jefferson Ravenwood of Biomed of America was successful in advancing the field in nanotechnology and the use of these “Nanos” in ways only dreamed of in Science Fiction. With the new technology the center of military attention from all over the world places of lawlessness are free to stagnate and evolve into war zones.
Part 2 - PMC's and the War Zones
Preview: The dynamics of the evolving war zones is revealed. The Middle East, Africa, Balkans, South America and South East Asia are all run by the war economy and the never ending struggle between rebel factions and Private Military Companies.
The Strategos
Thanatos
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No, without drastically changing the core tenets of the religion (at which point can it even be called "Judaism" anymore?), Jewish "missionaries" are not possible until its infection by Hellenism.
After what you stated though would it be possible?
The Strategos
Thanatos
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You would need to meet other conditions (for example, no Christianity, no Jewish revolt or at least a less destructive one) and there would be more logical expansion places (this alternate Judaism would naturally be stronger in Egypt which might influence it towards an African focus, though a Persian focus cannot be ruled out). It would also be unlikely for the same reasons early CE India and China didn’t become Christian during its early expansion (geographic isolationism, limited to non-existent focus and funds, inability to culturally adapt, lack of spiritual vacuum it could fill, etc).
If, despite these things, it did make it into China, by this time China was officially a Confucian state, so any Judaist inroads would have to either eventually adapt with or overthrow the Confucian system. Taoism was also still strong, especially among the peasantry and would be another formidable adversary. If, despite these obstacles, Judaism somehow managed to gain ground, geographical isolationism would dictate that it would splinter off from its Hellenistic step-father and likely be subsumed into some hybrid religion which would make it distinctively Asian.
So in conclusion, I wouldn't say it would be impossible, but it would have to get some very lucky (dare I say divinely inspired) breaks.
Edit: Though, not knowing Chinese history very well, I just noticed that in the time period this hypothetical Jewish missionary activity would most likely occur (post 80 CE), China was very politically unstable, which might help the spread of Judaism if they could get a sponsor from one of the competing groups, which would then go on to gain control. Of course, this might long term be worse as the Taoist inspired Yellow Turban Rebellion, if still successful, would likely attempt to crush Jewish power along with their political sponsors.
Edit2: The best PoD (off the top of my head) for this scenerio would be continued Jewish control by Ptolemy rather than Ptolemy->Seleucid->Maccabees
Is there also anyway, that once the reconquesta had and/or before it happened could it be possibal that the Moors, could have at the very least, sent Islamic missonary activity, over to the new world, and cause Mesoamerica to be largly islamic?
Have you ever read das' "By a Single Decision"? He basically answers your question in a large portion of it, and besides it's a good read.
No, I have not read it. I am assuming that's a story within this thread. Would this be correct?
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
No. It's in Civ3 Stories and Tales-here.
The Strategos
Thanatos
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Chapter 1 Summary: In 1582, Nobunaga thwarted an attempted assassination attempt. In the following campaigns, he effectively unified Japan by 1589. With Japan unified, Nobunaga turned to inward reforms, such as promotion of Europeanization, as well as external expansion at the expense of China. This external expansion resulted in the declaration of war against Korea in 1591.
Chapter 2 Summary: In 1592 Japan launched its invasion of Korea. The invasion went well overall, capturing the capital of Hanseong and advancing up to the Imjin River. Korean advantages at sea, which were causing Japanese supply problems, were neutralized by the capture of Jeolla Province, where the Korean navy was based. These Japanese successes prompted the Ming to intervene on behalf of Korea at the end of 1542.
Though military matters between Korea and Japan had marked 1592 for the two countries, the opening of 1593 thrust diplomatic and political concerns to the forefront. On the Korean side, these diplomatic events cumulated in the arrival of 20,000 Ming troops, the advance guard of a much larger Chinese force arriving to support the Koreans. Meanwhile, on the Japanese side, diplomatic infighting and accusations cumulated in the temporary recall of Hideyoshi from the front lines. This recall was based in part on accusations of cowardness and disloyalty stemming from Hideyoshi’s lack of attacks against Korean positions on the Imjin River.
Hideyoshi’s temporary replacement during his absence was Takigawa Kazumasu, Hideyoshi’s one time military rival during Nobunaga’s unification of Japan. Kazumasu wished to steal Hideyoshi’s glory by attacking during Hideyoshi’s absence, but was frustrated by the stall tactics used by Hideyoshi’s subordinates, who did not wish to fight until Hideyoshi’s return.
This division in Japanese command was mirrored on the opposing bank of the Imjin River. There, the Korean commander, Kim Myeong-won, who had replaced General Sin Rip after the latter’s defeat at Battle of Choryong Pass, wished to remain in his defensive positions along the Imjin River. However, in this, he was opposed by Song Yingchang, the Chinese commander of the 20,000 Ming troops, who held a low view of the Japanese troops compared to his own. The Korean Emperor Seonjo, not wishing to offend the Ming commander, and thereby possibly alienate his allies, approved of Yingchang’s plan.
Thus, the Korean-Chinese forces launched an attack over the Imjin River with slightly under fifty thousand men. Unfortunately for them, the Japanese had been building up their troop concentration along the river in anticipation of their own attack, and so outnumbered the Korean-Chinese force by about ten thousand men. In addition, Hideyoshi had the Japanese forces constructing defensive fortifications while his troops were waiting for the opportunity to renew their offensive.
Thus, the battle of Imjin River turned out to be a disaster for the attackers. While the attackers struggled forward against entrenched Japanese arquebusers, Kato Kiyomasa crossed the river with about five thousand men, using the boats that the Japanese had been hoarding for their own eventual crossing. There, they easily brushed aside the small Korean detachment that didn’t participate in the attack. Thus cut off, the attacking Korean-Chinese force was forced to surrender, along with Song Yingchang, though the Korean general Kim Myeong-won managed to escape as he did not take part in the attack.
With the Imjin River defensive lines breached, only several thousand hastily raised Korean militia groups stood between the sixty thousand strong Japanese army and Emperor Seonjo in Pyeongyang. Fortunately for Emperor Seonjo, when the overall commander of the Ming expeditionary force, General Li Rusong, heard about Yingchang’s defeat, he force marched his eighty thousand troops into Pyeongyang, barely beating the arriving Japanese troops.
Despite this, Kazumasu, having formed a low opinion of Ming troops during the battle of Imjin River, decided to press the attack. Predictably enough, in the face of a numerically superior force enjoying the advantage of fortifications, Kazumasu’s attempts at storming the city failed. Counter-raids by Ming forces convinced Kazumasu that he could not successfully besiege the city, and so he began retreating south.
Misinterpreting the Japanese withdraw as the beginnings of an unorganized retreat, and wishing to erase the sting of the Ming defeat at Imjin River, Rusong followed closely at the Japanese heels. Meanwhile, another of Hideyoshi’s subordinates, Shimazu Yoshihiro, took the opportunity to set an ambush for Rusong. Rusong, striving to overtake the retreating Japanese, failed to take precautions against an ambush. The ambush thus proved to be extremely successful, Rusong himself narrowly escaping with his life. Bloodied, Rusong began advancing much more cautiously, allowing the Japanese to use previously captured Korean forts to set up a defensive position. These fortresses the Ming army began systematically investing, overrunning several, though at heavy cost. This prompted Rusong to halt his advance, writing back to the Ming Emperor for more reinforcements.
By this time, Hideyoshi, cleared by Nobunaga of all charges against him, had returned to Korea at the head of thirty thousand reinforcements. While in Japan, Nobunaga had indicated to Hideyoshi that he had abandoned his goal of conquering China, and had given Hideyoshi authority to attempt to resolve the war with diplomacy. Hideyoshi, however, believed that he should not conduct diplomacy until he had a position of military strength to work with. Thus, Hideyoshi constructed a plan in order to capture Pyongyang, after which he planned on opening negotiations with the Ming.
As the first part of the plan, Hideyoshi had a Japanese spy leak compromising letters that purported to be correspondence between Admiral Yi and the Japanese regarding Admiral Yi’s defection. After this, the factionalism in the Korean court took over. Using this correspondence, Admiral Yi’s enemies in the court convinced the Emperor to strip him of his command, attaching him under Rusong’s joint Korean-Chinese command as a simple foot soldier. With their nemesis, Admiral Yi, out of the way, the Japanese fleet moved northward, intent on destroying the Korean fleet. This was accomplished when the Japanese fleet used Admiral Yi’s old trick of a fake retreat to draw out his less competent successor, before surrounding the outnumbered Korean navy and destroying it.
The Korean waters firmly in their hands, the Japanese unveiled their newest weapon. Utilizing captured Korean cannons as well as craftsmen captured when Jeolla Province fell to the Japanese, the Japanese had managed to replicate the Korean Kobuksons. Using these, which were more maneuverable in shallow waters, the Japanese under Yukinaga launched an attack up the Taedong River, upon which Pyongyang rested.
The Korean forts which guarded the river, seeing the escorting Kobuksons, and unaware that the Japanese had copied their design, thought that it was the returning Korean fleet, and thus allowed them to pass unmolested. This lasted until the Japanese reached Pyongyang itself, where a Japanese army disembarked, attacking the city. The attack was so sudden and unsuspected, that they were able to quickly overpower the defenders, as well as capturing Emperor Seonjo and most of his court before they could flee.
In conjunction with this attack, the Japanese, reinforced by the thirty thousand men Hideyoshi had brought with him went on a counter-offensive against the Korean-Chinese forces opposing them. While at first unsuccessful, news of the capture of Pyongyang arrived, throwing the Ming command into confusion. Unaware of how large the Japanese force actually was, and not knowing how they managed to capture Pyongyang, Rusong began panicking, fearing that he would be soon surrounded by the Japanese. Thus, Rusong ordered a general retreat, pursued by the Japanese.
Surrounding the Ming army was not, however, part of Hideyoshi’s plan. Fearing the fighting ability of the Ming, Hideyoshi merely wanted to use the temporary advantage to link up with Yukinaga’s forces, who were marching south from Pyongyang with the Emperor and several other prisoners. With these hostages secure, Hideyoshi withdrew to more defensible positions, just as Rusong learned of the actual situation and had ceased his withdraw. Using the Emperor as leverage, Hideyoshi sent a message to the Ming camp offering to begin negotiations to end the war. Rusong, unsure of how to proceed and seeing his Korean allies begin to melt away, took up defensive positions of his own and sent the offer of peace along to the Ming Emperor.
Chapter 2 Summary: In 1592 Japan launched its invasion of Korea. The invasion went well overall, capturing the capital of Hanseong and advancing up to the Imjin River. Korean advantages at sea, which were causing Japanese supply problems, were neutralized by the capture of Jeolla Province, where the Korean navy was based. These Japanese successes prompted the Ming to intervene on behalf of Korea at the end of 1542.
Chapter 3
Though military matters between Korea and Japan had marked 1592 for the two countries, the opening of 1593 thrust diplomatic and political concerns to the forefront. On the Korean side, these diplomatic events cumulated in the arrival of 20,000 Ming troops, the advance guard of a much larger Chinese force arriving to support the Koreans. Meanwhile, on the Japanese side, diplomatic infighting and accusations cumulated in the temporary recall of Hideyoshi from the front lines. This recall was based in part on accusations of cowardness and disloyalty stemming from Hideyoshi’s lack of attacks against Korean positions on the Imjin River.
Hideyoshi’s temporary replacement during his absence was Takigawa Kazumasu, Hideyoshi’s one time military rival during Nobunaga’s unification of Japan. Kazumasu wished to steal Hideyoshi’s glory by attacking during Hideyoshi’s absence, but was frustrated by the stall tactics used by Hideyoshi’s subordinates, who did not wish to fight until Hideyoshi’s return.
This division in Japanese command was mirrored on the opposing bank of the Imjin River. There, the Korean commander, Kim Myeong-won, who had replaced General Sin Rip after the latter’s defeat at Battle of Choryong Pass, wished to remain in his defensive positions along the Imjin River. However, in this, he was opposed by Song Yingchang, the Chinese commander of the 20,000 Ming troops, who held a low view of the Japanese troops compared to his own. The Korean Emperor Seonjo, not wishing to offend the Ming commander, and thereby possibly alienate his allies, approved of Yingchang’s plan.
Thus, the Korean-Chinese forces launched an attack over the Imjin River with slightly under fifty thousand men. Unfortunately for them, the Japanese had been building up their troop concentration along the river in anticipation of their own attack, and so outnumbered the Korean-Chinese force by about ten thousand men. In addition, Hideyoshi had the Japanese forces constructing defensive fortifications while his troops were waiting for the opportunity to renew their offensive.
Thus, the battle of Imjin River turned out to be a disaster for the attackers. While the attackers struggled forward against entrenched Japanese arquebusers, Kato Kiyomasa crossed the river with about five thousand men, using the boats that the Japanese had been hoarding for their own eventual crossing. There, they easily brushed aside the small Korean detachment that didn’t participate in the attack. Thus cut off, the attacking Korean-Chinese force was forced to surrender, along with Song Yingchang, though the Korean general Kim Myeong-won managed to escape as he did not take part in the attack.
With the Imjin River defensive lines breached, only several thousand hastily raised Korean militia groups stood between the sixty thousand strong Japanese army and Emperor Seonjo in Pyeongyang. Fortunately for Emperor Seonjo, when the overall commander of the Ming expeditionary force, General Li Rusong, heard about Yingchang’s defeat, he force marched his eighty thousand troops into Pyeongyang, barely beating the arriving Japanese troops.
Despite this, Kazumasu, having formed a low opinion of Ming troops during the battle of Imjin River, decided to press the attack. Predictably enough, in the face of a numerically superior force enjoying the advantage of fortifications, Kazumasu’s attempts at storming the city failed. Counter-raids by Ming forces convinced Kazumasu that he could not successfully besiege the city, and so he began retreating south.
Misinterpreting the Japanese withdraw as the beginnings of an unorganized retreat, and wishing to erase the sting of the Ming defeat at Imjin River, Rusong followed closely at the Japanese heels. Meanwhile, another of Hideyoshi’s subordinates, Shimazu Yoshihiro, took the opportunity to set an ambush for Rusong. Rusong, striving to overtake the retreating Japanese, failed to take precautions against an ambush. The ambush thus proved to be extremely successful, Rusong himself narrowly escaping with his life. Bloodied, Rusong began advancing much more cautiously, allowing the Japanese to use previously captured Korean forts to set up a defensive position. These fortresses the Ming army began systematically investing, overrunning several, though at heavy cost. This prompted Rusong to halt his advance, writing back to the Ming Emperor for more reinforcements.
By this time, Hideyoshi, cleared by Nobunaga of all charges against him, had returned to Korea at the head of thirty thousand reinforcements. While in Japan, Nobunaga had indicated to Hideyoshi that he had abandoned his goal of conquering China, and had given Hideyoshi authority to attempt to resolve the war with diplomacy. Hideyoshi, however, believed that he should not conduct diplomacy until he had a position of military strength to work with. Thus, Hideyoshi constructed a plan in order to capture Pyongyang, after which he planned on opening negotiations with the Ming.
As the first part of the plan, Hideyoshi had a Japanese spy leak compromising letters that purported to be correspondence between Admiral Yi and the Japanese regarding Admiral Yi’s defection. After this, the factionalism in the Korean court took over. Using this correspondence, Admiral Yi’s enemies in the court convinced the Emperor to strip him of his command, attaching him under Rusong’s joint Korean-Chinese command as a simple foot soldier. With their nemesis, Admiral Yi, out of the way, the Japanese fleet moved northward, intent on destroying the Korean fleet. This was accomplished when the Japanese fleet used Admiral Yi’s old trick of a fake retreat to draw out his less competent successor, before surrounding the outnumbered Korean navy and destroying it.
The Korean waters firmly in their hands, the Japanese unveiled their newest weapon. Utilizing captured Korean cannons as well as craftsmen captured when Jeolla Province fell to the Japanese, the Japanese had managed to replicate the Korean Kobuksons. Using these, which were more maneuverable in shallow waters, the Japanese under Yukinaga launched an attack up the Taedong River, upon which Pyongyang rested.
The Korean forts which guarded the river, seeing the escorting Kobuksons, and unaware that the Japanese had copied their design, thought that it was the returning Korean fleet, and thus allowed them to pass unmolested. This lasted until the Japanese reached Pyongyang itself, where a Japanese army disembarked, attacking the city. The attack was so sudden and unsuspected, that they were able to quickly overpower the defenders, as well as capturing Emperor Seonjo and most of his court before they could flee.
In conjunction with this attack, the Japanese, reinforced by the thirty thousand men Hideyoshi had brought with him went on a counter-offensive against the Korean-Chinese forces opposing them. While at first unsuccessful, news of the capture of Pyongyang arrived, throwing the Ming command into confusion. Unaware of how large the Japanese force actually was, and not knowing how they managed to capture Pyongyang, Rusong began panicking, fearing that he would be soon surrounded by the Japanese. Thus, Rusong ordered a general retreat, pursued by the Japanese.
Surrounding the Ming army was not, however, part of Hideyoshi’s plan. Fearing the fighting ability of the Ming, Hideyoshi merely wanted to use the temporary advantage to link up with Yukinaga’s forces, who were marching south from Pyongyang with the Emperor and several other prisoners. With these hostages secure, Hideyoshi withdrew to more defensible positions, just as Rusong learned of the actual situation and had ceased his withdraw. Using the Emperor as leverage, Hideyoshi sent a message to the Ming camp offering to begin negotiations to end the war. Rusong, unsure of how to proceed and seeing his Korean allies begin to melt away, took up defensive positions of his own and sent the offer of peace along to the Ming Emperor.
The Strategos
Thanatos
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Japan needs to eat Korea, not piss around with Hideyoshi's OTL division plan.
Then someone will be severely disapointed in the next chapter. There really is no plausable way I can see for Japan to "eat" Korea as long as the Ming are committed to the war.
That's the thing, though, because they aren't really able to commit to the war again. Their Korean allies are dwindling, they've suffered several military defeats, and they should be...preoccupied...soon. (IMHO if you'd dragged out the war longer, the new Ming preoccupation would have provided a dandy excuse to ditch the war.)
The Strategos
Thanatos
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Chapter 1 Summary: In 1582, Nobunaga thwarted an attempted assassination attempt. In the following campaigns, he effectively unified Japan by 1589. With Japan unified, Nobunaga turned to inward reforms, such as promotion of Europeanization, as well as external expansion at the expense of China. This external expansion resulted in the declaration of war against Korea in 1591.
Chapter 2 Summary: In 1592 Japan launched its invasion of Korea. The invasion went well overall, capturing the capital of Hanseong and advancing up to the Imjin River. Korean advantages at sea, which were causing Japanese supply problems, were neutralized by the capture of Jeolla Province, where the Korean navy was based. These Japanese successes prompted the Ming to intervene on behalf of Korea at the end of 1542.
Chapter 3 Summary: 1593 saw the arrival of Ming relief forces. At first, both sides underestimated each other, leading to several bloody defeats of both sides. Eventually Nobunaga began seeking a diplomatic solution to the war. His general Hideyoshi, wishing to negotiate from a position of strength conceived of a plan that lead to the capture of the Korean King Seonjo.
The Sun Sets
When the Ming Emperor, Wanli, heard of the capture of the Korean King Seonjo, he became furious. To him, this was the supreme insult to the Chinese tributary system, which correspondingly was an insult to the Ming Emperor himself. Thus, instead of its intended effects of allowing the Japanese to negotiate from a position of strength, the capture of the Korean king had nearly the opposite affect, causing the Ming to become more determined than ever to put the Japanese in their proper place. To accomplish this, the Wanli Emperor ordered the Ming expeditionary force doubled, from 100,000 men to 200,000 men.
Meanwhile, in Korea, the country was entering into its own political crisis as a result of the capture of the king and most of its court. In the resulting power vacuum, two forces emerged. The first, naturally enough, was the Ming General Li Rusong, who held vast influence by right of having the largest pro-Korean army in the area of the capital, as well as because he represented the Ming Empire. The second group to take advantage of the power vacuum to prosper was the Korean Western faction. In Korean politics, the Western and Eastern were born during King Seonjos reign around two leading scholars, Sim Ui-gyeom and Kim Hyowon. The group headed by Sim Ui-gyeom became the Western faction, which championed conservative values, while Kim Hyowons group became the Eastern faction, noted for its call for liberal reforms. During the war with Japan, the Eastern faction held the upper hand, primarily championed by the Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong. This meant, however, that during the Japanese raid of Pyongyang, the Eastern faction found many of its leaders captured along with the king, including the Prime Minister. This left the remaining Eastern faction members who escaped in a vulnerable position compared to the Western faction, who mostly escaped the Japanese raid.
The Western faction began almost immediately in consolidating the position of power in which they found themselves. In this effort, they were supported by General Rusong, who approved of the Westerners pro-Ming, pro-conservative agenda. Moving quickly, the Western faction had King Seonjos firstborn son, Prince Imhae, declared the Crown Prince, stripping the title from Prince Gwanghae, who had supported the Easterners. Prince Gwanghae, having had virtually all of his significant political allies captured by the Japanese, fled to the north, eventually finding refuge with the Manchu. The elevation of Prince Imhae to Crown Prince had an additional benefit for the Western faction as Prince Imhae was extremely incompetent, making him a mere puppet to the Western faction. Another significant victim of the Western factions consolidation of power was the former Admiral Yi, who was re-accused of treason, specifically giving the Japanese plans for the Kobuksons and giving them vital information that directly lead to the raid on Pyongyang, and was executed.
As both sides waited on the return of the peace envoys sent to the Ming court, a stable front began to be built as both sides began fortifying their lines. These fortifications used as their basis the inferior Korean castle system, supplemented by newly constructed forts that were better suited for the gunpowder combat that both sides used. The Japanese efforts were hampered more, however, as they began suffering under a renewed insurgency campaign undertaken by the occupied Koreans. In one incident, Hideyoshi attempted to have the captured King Seonjo dispel a particularly angry crowd, only to have the crowd turn on King Seonjo, pelting him with whatever came into the crowds hands. King Seonjo was quickly escorted away by Japanese troops, but not before suffering several cuts and bruises.
As the spring of 1594 continued, Hideyoshi began to suspect that the peace negotiations were failing, and thus began preparations for a renewed offensive. As part of the preparations for this renewed offensive, Hideyoshi began issuing proclamations in the name of King Seonjo, denouncing the unlawful elevation of Prince Imhae and supporting Prince Gwanghae. Through this, Hideyoshi hoped to exploit Korean factionalism, as well as pave the way for the possible eventual use of King Seonjo was a Japanese puppet ruler. These efforts proved futile, however, as the presence of the large Ming army as well as the efficiency of earlier Eastern purges had temporarily silenced criticism of the ruling Western faction.
Before Hideyoshi could implement an alternate plan, the Ming seized the initiative. Bolstered by 50,000 reinforcements from China, General Rusong began an advance. Simultaneously, the remnants of the Korean fleet merged with a large Chinese fleet under the command of General Chen Lin. In General Chen Lin, the allies perhaps did not have a man equal to the brilliance of the recently deceased Admiral Yi, but they did have a quality general who was more than a match for his Japanese counterpart. In addition, the Chinese vessels under his command were at least equal to their Korean counterparts, making them vastly superior to the bulk of the Japanese fleet. The Chinese also brought along their own version of the Korean Kobuksons, the falcon boat. A defeat of the outnumbered Japanese fleet convinced the Japanese to retreat their fleet to their controlled ports, where they would be sheltered by the cannons of the shore forts, while depending on their convoy system to keep their supply lines open.
The Chinese success on the seas mirrored their success on land. As more and more reinforcements poured in to Korea from China, Ming forces began to slowly advance, overrunning Japanese positions one at a time. In order to reverse this situation, the outnumbered Hideyoshi attempted to bolster his front line troops with Japanese troops that were garrisoned throughout southern Korea. However, these actions gained him few troops, because of the need to keep Japanese garrisons to combat the Korean militias that were operating behind his lines.
Nobunaga, seeing his attempts at a diplomatic solution having failed, became fatalistic towards the war. Already, Japanese casualties had exceeded his expectations. In addition, while some Japanese commanders were still enthusiastic about Japanese prospects in the war, more and more were advocating Japan take defensive positions, while others advocated withdrawing from Korea completely. As a result, Nobunaga became loath to send more troops to Korea. This stance was further reinforced by a private letter from Hideyoshi, who confided that he felt he would need a further 150,000 men, or double the number of troops already in Korea, to successfully pacify Korea.
As 1594 drew to a close, two events served to determine the direction of the war. The first occurred in Jeolla Province. This province had proved to be a critical battleground in the war. While the Koreans held it, it served to be a dagger in the heart of Japanese supply routes, interrupting them and forcing vast detours which served to hamper Japanese attempts at resupplying their army. Because of the strategic importance of this province, General Chen Lin determined to retake it at any costs. In this effort he was aided by a 10,000 strong Korean militia group operating in the area under the command of Gwak Jae-u. The Japanese, also realizing the significance of the area had devoted significant resources to maintain the province.
A major sea battle thus developed of the shores of Jeolla province, as General Chen Lin sought to win control over the local seas, which would allow him to directly support Gwak Jae-u efforts on land. Opposing Chen Lin was the bulk of the Japanese fleet, under the command of Yukinaga. Technologically, both sides were roughly equal, though the Chinese-Korean forces held a slight edge in the main ships that made up the bulk of each navy. The Japanese fleet consisted of slightly less than 100 ships, of which 7 were of the Kobuksons design, 25 which were of a modified panokson battle ships design, which were suitable for a bombardment strategy, 37 were the large and unwieldy Japanese atakebune design, and the rest which were of the traditional Japanese design which were more suited to boarding actions. Facing them were 150 Sino-Korean ships, of which 10 were of the Kobuksons design, while the rest were of a panokson-like design.
The battle began with Yukinaga attempting to lure the Chinese fleet into coastal waters, where the Japanese could be supported by shore guns. The Chinese fleet refused to fall for the ploy and remained afar, where they occasionally traded shots with the Japanese fleet at long range. By this time, the capital of Jeolla Province, Yeosu, was under virtual siege by Gwak Jae-us forces, while Chen Lin used the Korean control of the countryside to keep his own fleet supplied. In addition, Chen Lin used his control of the seas to land regular Ming troops as well as began raiding Japanese supply convoys, heavily utilizing the fact that the bulk of the Japanese fleet were trapped by him in Yeosu. When a Japanese land relief force was turned away by Gwak Jae-us men, Yukinaga knew he had to act to prevent the fall of Yeosu. As a result, Yukinaga sailed out to give battle. In the resulting battle, Yukinaga attempted to use his Kobuksons to spearhead a breakthrough of the Chinese lines, while the Chinese attempted to use their superior numbers to envelop the Japanese fleet.
The Japanese strategy ultimately proved victorious, as they managed to break through the Chinese center. However, in the process, they received heavy damage, and the Chinese wings were able to disengage virtually intact. The casualties amounted to roughly the same for each side, however, the bulk of the Japanese casualties were among their best ships. As a result, this victory severely weakened the Japanese navy. While Jeolla province remained in Japanese hands, the Japanese navy proved to be weakened enough that the Sino-Korean forces were able to prey on supply convoys even more than before, weakening the overall Japanese position.
The second event that sealed the outcome of the war was the Ming breakthrough of the Imjin River defensive line. This defensive line had been prepared by Hideyoshi for almost the entirety of the war, and represented the best chance the Japanese had of holding back the numerically superior Chinese forces. Attrition began to wear on the Japanese, however, as their spotty supply situation combined with lack of reinforcements began to weaken their lines. In addition, messages were coming in from all over the south from Japanese commanders who were either being besieged by overwhelming numbers of Korean militia, or were spending all their time chasing said militia, preventing even further reinforcements and supplies from reaching Hideyoshi.
The turning point came with the critical siege of Wonsan. There, the Japanese had developed a significant defensive line in order to hold the gap that existed between where the Imjin River ended and the coast of Korea. It was through this mountainous terrain that over 100,000 Korean-Ming soldiers besieged 20,000 Japanese troops. Hideyoshi, realizing the importance of the siege, attempted to personally march there with reinforcements to lift the siege, but was frustrated by numerous attacks along the Imjin River by the Ming, which effectively tied him down. A spirited defense led to over 20,000 dead on the attackers side, but sheer weight of numbers eventually forced the Japanese to retreat. Though heavily bloodied, the victory proved essential for the Sino-Koreans, as it opened up the way to bypass the extensive fortifications along the Imjin River.
Realizing that the majority of his defenses were now indefensible in the long run, Hideyoshi did what he could, fortifying every possible spot before the Ming march, intending to sell each handful of Korean soil as dearly as he could. Meanwhile, he wrote letters to Nobunaga, begging for reinforcements to turn the tide of the war. Instead, when Nobunagas reply arrived, it carried not promises of more reinforcements, but orders for a general retreat.
Chapter 2 Summary: In 1592 Japan launched its invasion of Korea. The invasion went well overall, capturing the capital of Hanseong and advancing up to the Imjin River. Korean advantages at sea, which were causing Japanese supply problems, were neutralized by the capture of Jeolla Province, where the Korean navy was based. These Japanese successes prompted the Ming to intervene on behalf of Korea at the end of 1542.
Chapter 3 Summary: 1593 saw the arrival of Ming relief forces. At first, both sides underestimated each other, leading to several bloody defeats of both sides. Eventually Nobunaga began seeking a diplomatic solution to the war. His general Hideyoshi, wishing to negotiate from a position of strength conceived of a plan that lead to the capture of the Korean King Seonjo.
Chapter 4:
The Sun Sets
When the Ming Emperor, Wanli, heard of the capture of the Korean King Seonjo, he became furious. To him, this was the supreme insult to the Chinese tributary system, which correspondingly was an insult to the Ming Emperor himself. Thus, instead of its intended effects of allowing the Japanese to negotiate from a position of strength, the capture of the Korean king had nearly the opposite affect, causing the Ming to become more determined than ever to put the Japanese in their proper place. To accomplish this, the Wanli Emperor ordered the Ming expeditionary force doubled, from 100,000 men to 200,000 men.
Meanwhile, in Korea, the country was entering into its own political crisis as a result of the capture of the king and most of its court. In the resulting power vacuum, two forces emerged. The first, naturally enough, was the Ming General Li Rusong, who held vast influence by right of having the largest pro-Korean army in the area of the capital, as well as because he represented the Ming Empire. The second group to take advantage of the power vacuum to prosper was the Korean Western faction. In Korean politics, the Western and Eastern were born during King Seonjos reign around two leading scholars, Sim Ui-gyeom and Kim Hyowon. The group headed by Sim Ui-gyeom became the Western faction, which championed conservative values, while Kim Hyowons group became the Eastern faction, noted for its call for liberal reforms. During the war with Japan, the Eastern faction held the upper hand, primarily championed by the Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong. This meant, however, that during the Japanese raid of Pyongyang, the Eastern faction found many of its leaders captured along with the king, including the Prime Minister. This left the remaining Eastern faction members who escaped in a vulnerable position compared to the Western faction, who mostly escaped the Japanese raid.
The Western faction began almost immediately in consolidating the position of power in which they found themselves. In this effort, they were supported by General Rusong, who approved of the Westerners pro-Ming, pro-conservative agenda. Moving quickly, the Western faction had King Seonjos firstborn son, Prince Imhae, declared the Crown Prince, stripping the title from Prince Gwanghae, who had supported the Easterners. Prince Gwanghae, having had virtually all of his significant political allies captured by the Japanese, fled to the north, eventually finding refuge with the Manchu. The elevation of Prince Imhae to Crown Prince had an additional benefit for the Western faction as Prince Imhae was extremely incompetent, making him a mere puppet to the Western faction. Another significant victim of the Western factions consolidation of power was the former Admiral Yi, who was re-accused of treason, specifically giving the Japanese plans for the Kobuksons and giving them vital information that directly lead to the raid on Pyongyang, and was executed.
As both sides waited on the return of the peace envoys sent to the Ming court, a stable front began to be built as both sides began fortifying their lines. These fortifications used as their basis the inferior Korean castle system, supplemented by newly constructed forts that were better suited for the gunpowder combat that both sides used. The Japanese efforts were hampered more, however, as they began suffering under a renewed insurgency campaign undertaken by the occupied Koreans. In one incident, Hideyoshi attempted to have the captured King Seonjo dispel a particularly angry crowd, only to have the crowd turn on King Seonjo, pelting him with whatever came into the crowds hands. King Seonjo was quickly escorted away by Japanese troops, but not before suffering several cuts and bruises.
As the spring of 1594 continued, Hideyoshi began to suspect that the peace negotiations were failing, and thus began preparations for a renewed offensive. As part of the preparations for this renewed offensive, Hideyoshi began issuing proclamations in the name of King Seonjo, denouncing the unlawful elevation of Prince Imhae and supporting Prince Gwanghae. Through this, Hideyoshi hoped to exploit Korean factionalism, as well as pave the way for the possible eventual use of King Seonjo was a Japanese puppet ruler. These efforts proved futile, however, as the presence of the large Ming army as well as the efficiency of earlier Eastern purges had temporarily silenced criticism of the ruling Western faction.
Before Hideyoshi could implement an alternate plan, the Ming seized the initiative. Bolstered by 50,000 reinforcements from China, General Rusong began an advance. Simultaneously, the remnants of the Korean fleet merged with a large Chinese fleet under the command of General Chen Lin. In General Chen Lin, the allies perhaps did not have a man equal to the brilliance of the recently deceased Admiral Yi, but they did have a quality general who was more than a match for his Japanese counterpart. In addition, the Chinese vessels under his command were at least equal to their Korean counterparts, making them vastly superior to the bulk of the Japanese fleet. The Chinese also brought along their own version of the Korean Kobuksons, the falcon boat. A defeat of the outnumbered Japanese fleet convinced the Japanese to retreat their fleet to their controlled ports, where they would be sheltered by the cannons of the shore forts, while depending on their convoy system to keep their supply lines open.
The Chinese success on the seas mirrored their success on land. As more and more reinforcements poured in to Korea from China, Ming forces began to slowly advance, overrunning Japanese positions one at a time. In order to reverse this situation, the outnumbered Hideyoshi attempted to bolster his front line troops with Japanese troops that were garrisoned throughout southern Korea. However, these actions gained him few troops, because of the need to keep Japanese garrisons to combat the Korean militias that were operating behind his lines.
Nobunaga, seeing his attempts at a diplomatic solution having failed, became fatalistic towards the war. Already, Japanese casualties had exceeded his expectations. In addition, while some Japanese commanders were still enthusiastic about Japanese prospects in the war, more and more were advocating Japan take defensive positions, while others advocated withdrawing from Korea completely. As a result, Nobunaga became loath to send more troops to Korea. This stance was further reinforced by a private letter from Hideyoshi, who confided that he felt he would need a further 150,000 men, or double the number of troops already in Korea, to successfully pacify Korea.
As 1594 drew to a close, two events served to determine the direction of the war. The first occurred in Jeolla Province. This province had proved to be a critical battleground in the war. While the Koreans held it, it served to be a dagger in the heart of Japanese supply routes, interrupting them and forcing vast detours which served to hamper Japanese attempts at resupplying their army. Because of the strategic importance of this province, General Chen Lin determined to retake it at any costs. In this effort he was aided by a 10,000 strong Korean militia group operating in the area under the command of Gwak Jae-u. The Japanese, also realizing the significance of the area had devoted significant resources to maintain the province.
A major sea battle thus developed of the shores of Jeolla province, as General Chen Lin sought to win control over the local seas, which would allow him to directly support Gwak Jae-u efforts on land. Opposing Chen Lin was the bulk of the Japanese fleet, under the command of Yukinaga. Technologically, both sides were roughly equal, though the Chinese-Korean forces held a slight edge in the main ships that made up the bulk of each navy. The Japanese fleet consisted of slightly less than 100 ships, of which 7 were of the Kobuksons design, 25 which were of a modified panokson battle ships design, which were suitable for a bombardment strategy, 37 were the large and unwieldy Japanese atakebune design, and the rest which were of the traditional Japanese design which were more suited to boarding actions. Facing them were 150 Sino-Korean ships, of which 10 were of the Kobuksons design, while the rest were of a panokson-like design.
The battle began with Yukinaga attempting to lure the Chinese fleet into coastal waters, where the Japanese could be supported by shore guns. The Chinese fleet refused to fall for the ploy and remained afar, where they occasionally traded shots with the Japanese fleet at long range. By this time, the capital of Jeolla Province, Yeosu, was under virtual siege by Gwak Jae-us forces, while Chen Lin used the Korean control of the countryside to keep his own fleet supplied. In addition, Chen Lin used his control of the seas to land regular Ming troops as well as began raiding Japanese supply convoys, heavily utilizing the fact that the bulk of the Japanese fleet were trapped by him in Yeosu. When a Japanese land relief force was turned away by Gwak Jae-us men, Yukinaga knew he had to act to prevent the fall of Yeosu. As a result, Yukinaga sailed out to give battle. In the resulting battle, Yukinaga attempted to use his Kobuksons to spearhead a breakthrough of the Chinese lines, while the Chinese attempted to use their superior numbers to envelop the Japanese fleet.
The Japanese strategy ultimately proved victorious, as they managed to break through the Chinese center. However, in the process, they received heavy damage, and the Chinese wings were able to disengage virtually intact. The casualties amounted to roughly the same for each side, however, the bulk of the Japanese casualties were among their best ships. As a result, this victory severely weakened the Japanese navy. While Jeolla province remained in Japanese hands, the Japanese navy proved to be weakened enough that the Sino-Korean forces were able to prey on supply convoys even more than before, weakening the overall Japanese position.
The second event that sealed the outcome of the war was the Ming breakthrough of the Imjin River defensive line. This defensive line had been prepared by Hideyoshi for almost the entirety of the war, and represented the best chance the Japanese had of holding back the numerically superior Chinese forces. Attrition began to wear on the Japanese, however, as their spotty supply situation combined with lack of reinforcements began to weaken their lines. In addition, messages were coming in from all over the south from Japanese commanders who were either being besieged by overwhelming numbers of Korean militia, or were spending all their time chasing said militia, preventing even further reinforcements and supplies from reaching Hideyoshi.
The turning point came with the critical siege of Wonsan. There, the Japanese had developed a significant defensive line in order to hold the gap that existed between where the Imjin River ended and the coast of Korea. It was through this mountainous terrain that over 100,000 Korean-Ming soldiers besieged 20,000 Japanese troops. Hideyoshi, realizing the importance of the siege, attempted to personally march there with reinforcements to lift the siege, but was frustrated by numerous attacks along the Imjin River by the Ming, which effectively tied him down. A spirited defense led to over 20,000 dead on the attackers side, but sheer weight of numbers eventually forced the Japanese to retreat. Though heavily bloodied, the victory proved essential for the Sino-Koreans, as it opened up the way to bypass the extensive fortifications along the Imjin River.
Realizing that the majority of his defenses were now indefensible in the long run, Hideyoshi did what he could, fortifying every possible spot before the Ming march, intending to sell each handful of Korean soil as dearly as he could. Meanwhile, he wrote letters to Nobunaga, begging for reinforcements to turn the tide of the war. Instead, when Nobunagas reply arrived, it carried not promises of more reinforcements, but orders for a general retreat.
das
Regeneration In Process
Sooo... Does anyone have anything to say about Jason of Thessaly (or of Pherae)?
I might.
Personally, I think that Epaminondas was better, but that the famed hippeis Thessalikoi would have been an invaluable advantage (IMHO kinda close to call)...thing is, he (Jason), unlike the Makedonians, didn't develop a new tactical instrument, he just incorporated awesome cavalry into the preexisting Hellenic system. Which isn't really conducive to sustaining much of anything. So if Jason did manage to beat the Thebans and stay alive long enough to make Thessalia preeminent in Hellas without exhausting it in the process, he probably wouldn't be able to make significant gains against the Persians outside of, like, western Anatolia. 'Cause, as you know, the Persians did develop their own hoplite variant, which could contest things well enough with regular Hellenic hoplitai but which couldn't stand up to Makedonian phalangitai. Or something like that. So yeah, at the end of the road I just don't like his military system enough. And it prevents ma buddies the Makedonians from being awesome. 
das
Regeneration In Process
I might.
I thought you might.
Wouldn't Jason have developed something like the phalanx as well after facing the Boeotians?
The Persians have other, non-military vulnerabilities as well; a military defeat would probably lead to a major upheaval and uprisings in the western satrapies, which could then be translated into a new string of military defeats.
In any case, wouldn't gains in Western Anatolia be much more sustainable?
North King
blech
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The Persians lived through plenty of other military defeats just fine. I think we don't give them enough credit, reading way too much into their fall.
das
Regeneration In Process
Most of those defeats were on the western periphery; had the Greeks successfully pushed into the heart Asia Minor, it would have been a different thing entirely. I suppose that the empire could very well have survived a defeat there, but the loss of the Eastern Mediterranean is certainly an option if we remember that Egypt had already broken away earlier in Artaxertes II's reign.
North King
blech
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Sure, but even if you strip away Egypt and Anatolia, that's honestly pretty minor (and it does feel odd to be saying that about any empire, even Persia). Mesopotamia to Soghidana (spelling's off, I know) to the Indus to the Caucasus is an excellently sized empire for anyone, I think.
More interesting is what would happen to, say, Alexander (and his Macedonians). No rise to prominence? That would make me wonder whether the Greeks ever conquer all that territory, and the spread of language and customs cannot be underestimated in its impact. I don't think we'd necessarily be worse off -- Persia has a very vibrant culture and scientific tradition itself -- but it would be different. Obviously.
More interesting is what would happen to, say, Alexander (and his Macedonians). No rise to prominence? That would make me wonder whether the Greeks ever conquer all that territory, and the spread of language and customs cannot be underestimated in its impact. I don't think we'd necessarily be worse off -- Persia has a very vibrant culture and scientific tradition itself -- but it would be different. Obviously.
