Ann Coulter

Speaking of violence, Newt Gingrich blames the Democrats for inciting the conservatives to violence! And a wackjob threatens a Democrat congressman with a "panty bomber" because she "loves" her insurance company!


Link to video.
 
yes, it is all the Democrats fault for the violence because the elected a black guy
 
its true though. When it comes to free speech my country really needs to get its sh*t together

I don't think so. American-style absolute (or near absolute) free speech is fortunately not a divinely mandated right of man.

I much prefer the Canadian system, where free speech can and should be restricted to "the limits acceptable of a democratic society". Criticizing and attacking the government (except if you go overboard into inciting criminal activity) is never going to pass the second half of that test (it's a fundamental of democracy!), but people trying to create a hostile environment for others, and to make them feel unwelcome, will have to watch themselves.

Yeah, sometime, some judges will go overboard in interpreting hate laws, but our fundamental system is much less open to abuse than the American one with its absolute statements.
 
I don't think so. American-style absolute (or near absolute) free speech is fortunately not a divinely mandated right of man.

I much prefer the Canadian system, where free speech can and should be restricted to "the limits acceptable of a democratic society". Criticizing and attacking the government (except if you go overboard into inciting criminal activity) is never going to pass the second half of that test (it's a fundamental of democracy!), but people trying to create a hostile environment for others, and to make them feel unwelcome, will have to watch themselves.

Yeah, sometime, some judges will go overboard in interpreting hate laws, but our fundamental system is much less open to abuse than the American one with its absolute statements.

I dunno, I don't think there should be limits to free speech under any circumstances, but thats my own opinion and i can understand where you're coming from.

For example i would much rather defend a nazi's right to deny the holocaust than petition for ernst zundel to be exiled (think the fact that holocaust denial and other forms of revisionist thought are "banned" in some places is as absurd as holocaust denial and historical revisionism in the first place). I dont think thought or speech should ever be regulated, only actions. The problem with "the limits acceptable of a democratic society" is that the "limits" are almost impossible to identify without creating some kind of double standard somewhere.
 
Perhaps. I agree with the Canadian system though, I don't think that the advocation of racially-based genocide (Nazism) should be acceptable in any way.
 
Perhaps. I agree with the Canadian system though, I don't think that the advocation of racially-based genocide (Nazism) should be acceptable in any way.

I don't agree. Just from the standpoint of letting the crazies have their say openly allows them to demonstrate to others just how crazy they are.
 
I dunno, I don't think there should be limits to free speech under any circumstances, but thats my own opinion and i can understand where you're coming from.

For example i would much rather defend a nazi's right to deny the holocaust than petition for ernst zundel to be exiled (think the fact that holocaust denial and other forms of revisionist thought are "banned" in some places is as absurd as holocaust denial and historical revisionism in the first place). I dont think thought or speech should ever be regulated, only actions. The problem with "the limits acceptable of a democratic society" is that the "limits" are almost impossible to identify without creating some kind of double standard somewhere.

Thought should not be regulated. Public speech, however, is a form of action that can, in fact, cause harm to people, and it is the government's place to regulate interaction between citizens.

As for identifying the limits, there is a clearly established judicial test with regard to that.

1. The law must address a substantial (ie, real, serious) objective.
This has two practical effects. The first is that any restriction to fundamental rights must be a mean to a (non-frivolous) end, not an end in itself. The second is that this end cannot, itself, contradict the charter. You can restrict free speech in the name of protecting minorities, but you cannot restrict free speech in the name of preventing criticism of the government (you might get away with "unity in time of war". Maybe.).

2. The means must be connected to the objective.
A fairly straightforward one, really - you can't infringe on somebody's rights if doing so has nothing to do with the stated aim of the law. (You can restrict hate speech in a law aimed to protecting minorities. You can't ban criticism of government in a law aimed at protecting minorities)

3. The impairment of rights must be minimal.
Bit more subjective, but basically, this asks the questions: could the objectives of the law be achieved with lesser restrictions? If so, then these lesser restrictions should be used instead. For example, let us assume a perfect hypothetical and not AT ALL something the SC ruled on in the eighties :mischief: law that aim to ensure that the primary language in province X remain language Y, which is not English and as such a minority language. You could, of course, simply ban people from making any signs that include any other language than language Y, but you could achieve the very same objective by instead simply mandating that all signs must give precedence to language Y. Since the second solution is far less restrictive than the first, the first will fail the "minimal impairment" part of the test.

4. The infringement must be proportional to the objective.
Essentially, what does society as a whole stand to gain from the objective of your law? And what do the individuals affected by the restriction stand to lose? Do the loss completely outstrips the gain, or do the gain justify the loss? That's the subjective one, of course, but all laws are subjective don't exist (for example the age of consent is based on the subjective idea of when teens are old enough to give their consent).

However, with regard to point #4, it's worth keeping in mind that if a law fails any ONE part of the test, it's unconstitutional. So point #4 is a final safeguard against disproportionate laws that would otherwise pass the test; it can never be used to justify a law that would otherwise fail the test.

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Cutlass : the problem, to me, with letting the crazies have their say is that it takes common sense to recognize crazies, and common sense, as all the world knows, is neither. Any crazy can and will find an audience of other crazies perfectly willing to listen to their claims and accusations, and "do something about them".

"Do something about it" usually involve rather extreme violations of certain extremely fundamental rights (right to life, for a start...). This is, of course, unacceptable. Unfortunately, it's been shown (times and times again) that penal dissuasion is fairly limited in its effects on crazies. It's also been shown (times and times again) that flooding the streets with police usually ended up impairing the rights of innocent people a great deal, and stopping the misdeeds of not-so-innocent people very little if at all.

That leaves "keep the crazies from making those accusations and claims that convince other crazies to 'do something about it' in the first place".

It's not a perfect world solution, but I tend to think it's the best way to make a great deal of conflicting concepts meet.
 
In other news a man at a Sarah Palin speech is dragged off for heckling while she clams it's all thanks to the constitution and free speech that he can be dragged off for heckling.
 
The flip side of that is, Who Decides? One government might shut down Rush Limbaugh, but the next might shut down Job Stewart. So you don't get the good without risking the bad.
 
If Sarah Palin gets to decide, you are all buggered.
 
The flip side of that is, Who Decides? One government might shut down Rush Limbaugh, but the next might shut down Job Stewart. So you don't get the good without risking the bad.

The elected representatives of the people, with the resolution of any conflict between individual rights and collective will left to the judicial, whose task it is to enforce the constitution.

As for "who" you shut down: you should not be shutting down opinions in themselves, but certain ways of presenting them (to incite others to share them): ways that involve spreading falsehoods to make a specific group look hate-worthy (probably excluding political affiliations) look bad. Banning holocaust denial in itself? I think that's too much. But when the narrow line between "The holocaust didn't happen!" and "Jews invented the holocaust for political gains!" (or "to gain sympathy") is crossed, suddenly you're not just manifesting an opinion about the holocaust, but inciting others to view the Jews as bad people, via a blatant falsehood.

Similarly with Ann Coulter. Let her hate Muslims. Let her say she hate Muslims. Even "Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims" should be (and, IMO, is) borderline at most (it would be on the bad side, except for that first half). But she certainly walk a very dangerous line.

Of course, there are people on the left who do the same thing.
 
The line is too dangerous to draw. Better to allow all speech. Even a great deal more than what the US in practice now allows.
 
Which, I suppose, goes to show why it's good to have different countries with different approaches on fundamental rights, and why one-size-fits-all view of fundamental rights are just about the worst thing that could possibly happen - I honestly wouldn't care to live in a society with even more free speech than the USA. Whereas you obviously wouldn't care to live in a society with a more restrictive take on free speech.
 
what about arbitrarily-based genocide?

Yeah...

So, racial genocide is wrong, correct? (Of course it is)

Now, it's wrong because that's racism, right? (Well, yeah, I guess...)

And we can all agree that if it's not racist, it's not as wrong, right? (Er... I suppose...)

So, if only we could get rid of the racial genocide...

I know! Let's just kill people of all the races! (WHAT!?)

Yes... genocide is actually worse than omnicide... (I know a great place with men in white coats...)

So, I conclude that we should commit omnicide. (Get out of my head!)
 
I think Coulter is mentioned much more in the media, sure, which may in turn make it appear she is worse, but in his day, Franken said plenty of stuff directly equivalent.

Examples please. Because if someone has said something even close to as stupendously and hilariously wrong as what Coulter has said at times, then it's certainly worth a read for the lolz.

Unless you'd prefer to retract the above.
 
Freedom of Speach here in the US has been gradually expanded by the Supreme Court to cover everything from pornography to election contributions - it's not just about speeking out against government anymore.

I'm reminded of an incident a few years ago when the Dixie Chicks (also Blond) criticised President Bush during their show. Not only did they get bood, their album sales plummeted and several of their performances were cancelled. We all have this freedom, but there are sometimes consequences. You have to have the courage of your convictions. AC should have gone ahead and spoke and taken the heat.
 
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