Another First World Muslim Joins ISIS

[Tahuti]

They also managed to kill 68,778 French civilians. Some of whom, it should be noted, may well have been Nazis.

"They killed 68,778 Freedom civilians! They surrendered to the Nohd-zies and acted like when 'Murica was at its darkest hour so..."

 

[Borachio]

This is causing a bit of a stir in the UK, atm.


Link to video.

 

[Quackers]

I watched a part of a report on Channel 4 News (which is quite a left-wing news programme and even they recognise the dangers of first world muslim fighters). They said that many of the fighters who return to the UK pose a significant terrorist threat to Britain. They have been trained in warfare, probably know how to assemble a bomb and could really harm the public.

That's another difference to the "oh but teh irish fourt 4 der briiits!".

 

[El_Machinae]

Isn't it sad when the military is the best career option for so many people?

I think workfare projects are a great idea, they provide a great way of improving the quality of life. The military apparently makes the idea palatable to the rightwing.

 

[Oruc]

As usual the apologists are out. We even have analogies for the Irish fighting for the British as if it was in anyway comparable.
ISIS are a terrorist organisation and are underpinned by crazy, extreme Islam.

The worrying thing is, why do these young men who have been raised in Western societies with all the cultural input that entails feel the need to fight overseas and risk their lives for thuggish groups? This isn't unusual, there have been plenty of cases in the UK too.

It gives them a sense of purpose, a cause to fight for and something to believe in.

 

[CuddlyBear]

We've been over this: most jurisdictions forbid the stripping of citizenship if it would leave an individual stateless, and as citizenship comes with right-to-abode in all but a very small, peculiar number of cases, it wouldn't be possible to prevent their re-entry into the country. If it was established that they were or had been a member of a proscribed terrorist organisation, they could be imprisoned, but as Kramerfan has pointed out, that is in itself very difficult, and you can't simply throw your citizens in prison because they might be a terrorist.

Both of these restrictions, that you cannot render individuals stateless and that you cannot imprison them without evidence, are generally regarded as Good Things, because they protect individual citizens against the machinations of under-accounted bureaucrats and politicians. These are some of the very liberal democratic freedoms which you are so concerned to defend. And you propose that we conduct this defensive by abolishing them?

No. You're putting words in my mouth. Foreign criminals are deported. Foreign terrorists should be deported as well. You fund Islamic terrorist organisations or join them -> GET LOST!

 

[Oruc]

We've been over this: most jurisdictions forbid the stripping of citizenship if it would leave an individual stateless, and as citizenship comes with right-to-abode in all but a very small, peculiar number of cases, it wouldn't be possible to prevent their re-entry into the country. If it was established that they were or had been a member of a proscribed terrorist organisation, they could be imprisoned, but as Kramerfan has pointed out, that is in itself very difficult, and you can't simply throw your citizens in prison because they might be a terrorist.

Both of these restrictions, that you cannot render individuals stateless and that you cannot imprison them without evidence, are generally regarded as Good Things, because they protect individual citizens against the machinations of under-accounted bureaucrats and politicians. These are some of the very liberal democratic freedoms which you are so concerned to defend. And you propose that we conduct this defensive by abolishing them?

I thought you didn't like states?

Are you responding to my post, or reviewing it?

mocking it I think

 

[Sanguivorant]

Okay now for some input.

I am a Muslim myself, living in the west. I did want to hear some of your answers.

Time for some clarification.

First of all, I want to dispel the myth that there are actual recruiting centers. It appears that mosques work close with the government and every mosque I have been to has these "Anti - radicalization programs" to convince Muslims not to join the conflict.

I know some people who have left to fight in Syria. When I asked why, they said it was to help the Muslims in trouble there, because according to Islam, each Muslim is part of a single body, and if one body part is injured, the system feels it as a whole.

Some of those fighters go there for what they claim to be humanitarian reasons. They claim that if their host countries don't want to oust the Assad regime, then they will take up arms and do it with someone who will.

For those Muslims who go for humanitarian reasons, is there anything that a Muslim can do in a liberal democratic country that will help those living in Syria without having to resort to fighting?

I know ISIS is mainly concerned with establishing an Islamic Caliphate. There is some appeal of that from educated Muslims, who tend to think globally and want a tight union between all other Muslims, but a lot of those people also go with the intention of serving the people in trouble there by ensuring that donations reach their intended destination (and not confiscated by the Assad regime) and defending those unable to defend themselves.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

These are the kind of guys who thought Mythbuster's Exploding Pants was a suggestion?

Ok, the danger of Western Terrorists. For my priority sake, does it exceed the danger of getting in the car each morning? Not that I get in a car each morning, since I walk to work, but I'm a caring person who values the safety of his fellow citizens.

edit: about the topic: young adult does something extreme.

 

[El_Machinae]

For those Muslims who go for humanitarian reasons, is there anything that a Muslim can do in a liberal democratic country that will help those living in Syria without having to resort to fighting?

Absolutely,
Doctor's Without Borders
Human Rights Watch

 

[Sanguivorant]

What does human rights watch do exactly?

 

[KevinLancaster]

To add to that, the Red Crescent? I feel like those organizations might not be Muslim specific enough to compel those who are leaving for these conflicts to join.

EDIT: One thing I thought about which might be encouraging these men to join the militant groups is that it's somewhat easier to kill than to provide medical aid.

 

[Quackers]

Okay now for some input.

I am a Muslim myself, living in the west. I did want to hear some of your answers.

Time for some clarification.

First of all, I want to dispel the myth that there are actual recruiting centers. It appears that mosques work close with the government and every mosque I have been to has these "Anti - radicalization programs" to convince Muslims not to join the conflict.

I know some people who have left to fight in Syria. When I asked why, they said it was to help the Muslims in trouble there, because according to Islam, each Muslim is part of a single body, and if one body part is injured, the system feels it as a whole.

Some of those fighters go there for what they claim to be humanitarian reasons. They claim that if their host countries don't want to oust the Assad regime, then they will take up arms and do it with someone who will.

For those Muslims who go for humanitarian reasons, is there anything that a Muslim can do in a liberal democratic country that will help those living in Syria without having to resort to fighting?

I know ISIS is mainly concerned with establishing an Islamic Caliphate. There is some appeal of that from educated Muslims, who tend to think globally and want a tight union between all other Muslims, but a lot of those people also go with the intention of serving the people in trouble there by ensuring that donations reach their intended destination (and not confiscated by the Assad regime) and defending those unable to defend themselves.

Have you spoken to the Police about this? Might be worthwhile...

 

[Sanguivorant]

You mean about those who left?

 

[Quackers]

Yup. These people may be commiting vicious crimes abroad as we speak.

 

[Sanguivorant]

I'll be sure to do so.

My main worry is that now there is a suspicion by authorities that any Muslim in their 20s that is doing post secondary is likely a radical.

I already assume that I am under surveillance, and I even proved that my phone is being tapped. But these people who left to fight could cause even more problems for me in the future. The people who left make people suspicious of those that share my identity. That could make the common Canadian feel distrust towards me and might affect my employability in the future. So that is why these people worry me a bit.

 

[Quackers]

I'll be sure to do so.

My main worry is that now there is a suspicion by authorities that any Muslim in their 20s that is doing post secondary is likely a radical.

I already assume that I am under surveillance, and I even proved that my phone is being tapped. But these people who left to fight could cause even more problems for me in the future. The people who left make people suspicious of those that share my identity. That could make the common Canadian feel distrust towards me and might affect my employability in the future. So that is why these people worry me a bit.

Your concerns are valid and I sympathise with your feelings. There isn't much you can do about it though

 

[Sanguivorant]

I can't change my race and no way in hell am I changing my religion. I could change my name though. Maybe that could help the employability problem.

 

[KevinLancaster]

Did they ever play Civ? Might have been nice if they had become CivFanatics instead.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Did they ever play Civ? Might have been nice if they had become CivFanatics instead.

Gold <snip> star for that comment.