holy king
Deity
a nation who fought alongside nazi germany to gain independence in the past has to design national myths who are in a very problematic relationship with national socialism to legitimize itself?
say what?
say what?
I couldn't agree more. It is like the quite similar miltitary-based anti-communist, ultra-nationalist authoritarian movement within Greece which led to the military junta that controlled the country for so long, and which still exists to a great extent. It is apparently still the political beliefs of a large number of the people.And so what? If they like nazis let them be. As long as they dont create a wwIII i see no reason why we should criticize them. If they want to be nazi is their choice.
Estonia is a democratic parliamentary republic and is divided into 15 counties.
uman rights in Estonia are well respected by the government.[90][91] Estonia is ranked on high levels in democracy,[92] press freedom,[93] privacy [94] and human development.[95] Individuals are guaranteed basic rights under the constitution, legislative acts, and treaties relating to human rights ratified by the Estonian government.[90][91][96][97] Additionally, Freedom House has reported Estonia as having the highest level of internet freedom in the world.[98]
Several international and human rights organisations, such as Human Rights Watch,[91] the UN Human Rights Council [99][specify] and the OSCE,[100] have found no evidence or pattern of systematic abuse of human rights or discrimination on ethnic grounds, while others have raised concerns regarding Estonia's significant Russophone immigrant community, for example, Amnesty International [101] contends Russian speakers face linguistic discrimination in employment and education, when being unable to speak the Estonian language, which is the official language of Estonia. According to a 2009 survey by the European Union Fundamental Rights Agency, 17% of Russian immigrants living now in Estonia had experienced discrimination based on their ethnic origin.[102]
I merely gave Finland as example of proper treatment of language minorities.
Regardless of compulsory teaching and status of second state language, Swedish-speaking minority is not being discriminated in modern Finland. Am I right?
And once again, I completely agree that in a democracy that the will of the people should decide what form of government they actually have. Fortunately, this particular group appears to be fairly small and the majority of the people completely oppose their views.If they are a democracy that respect human rights let them do what they want. In democracy the people choose. If estonians choose to become nazi is their choice and have every right to do it.
How it's their right to become Nazi? If they will make a democratic choice to send all Russians into concentration camps, it would also be their right, as democratic nation?If they are a democracy that respect human rights let them do what they want. In democracy the people choose. If estonians choose to become nazi is their choice and have every right to do it.
How it's their right to become Nazi? If they will make a democratic choice to send all Russians into concentration camps, it would also be their right, as democratic nation?
Estonia’s citizenship policy after the restoration of independence has been based on the doctrine of legal continuity of the state. According to this principle, the end of the Soviet occupation did not create a new state, but rather restored a previously existing state whose independence was interrupted by forcible annexation into the USSR. The first steps after the end of occupation were to restore the political and legal framework that existed in 1940.They weren't able to influence the rules of obtaining citizenship.
These rules were imposed to them by the people of the only correct nationality.
8% of your population doesn't have citizenship and rights to vote.
Good job, democratic Estonia.
As I mentioned above to red elk, the law intended to ban the display of both Nazi and Soviet symbols never passed. The cited source only refers to its first reading in parliament.In November 2006, the government passed a law banning the display of Nazi symbols.[51]
After 20 years of independence, you still have 8% of non-citizens, and you call it not unreasonable conditions? Name me one country in Europe, except Estonia and Latvia, which has similar situation - first and second grade citizens.For this group, it was made possible to become Estonian citizens via naturalization. The fact that most have successfully done so, is proof that conditions for that were not unreasonable nor overly difficult to achieve.
You will not make loyal citizens out of them, by forcing them to pass your tests. You will not make Estonians out of Russians or their children anyway. But you can make them respect your state, place where they live for years, if you will respect their rights.Surveys have shown that the range of rights to which non-citizens are entitled, which closely match those of citizens, in effect disincentives many people to apply for citizenship, as this would bring about next to none material changes. They would, gain visa-free in EU, but they would lose visa-free travel with Russia, which may be more important to those with family or business connections there.
You are welcome to do that, if you want. Especially, if you see that such groups are supported by state in any way.We don't go pocking in Russias business to discuss their neo-nazi groups and report based on that.
Please remind me which unique law in Russia encourages or tolerates headcutting of foreign people.Just as Estonians veteran gatherings that fought for the German Nazi army might be unique to Estonia the headcutting of foreign people is unique to Russia in Europe.
Well, I'm probably not the biggest patriot of Estonia on these forums, so the destiny of your country is not very much important for me. I usually don't start or revive threads like this. But if somebody asks me, or if I see that my people are being treated unfairly, why not to point this out? To me it's good enough reason to express my opinion.Actually Red_Elk why is Estonia so important to you? Let us be fascists, communists, liberalists, naschists, nazists, atheists, deists, theist, racists. Whatever we like to be. It's our country that will go down the train.
No, it won't. There's more to democracy than a simple "what the majority says happens".Yes, it will be their right.
Fine, if it's their right to become Nazis, the other nations can make their democratic choice too and do to them what they once already did to Nazis.Yes, it will be their right.How it's their right to become Nazi? If they will make a democratic choice to send all Russians into concentration camps, it would also be their right, as democratic nation?
Considering we originally had something between 30-40% - yes I do. Maybe these people prefer the privileges they have as stateless persons to privileges they'd have as citizens?After 20 years of independence, you still have 8% of non-citizens, and you call it not unreasonable conditions?
We do not have first and second grade citizens. We have citizens and we have immigrants who have not obtained (or wished to obtain) citizenship. No distinction is made between citizenship obtained via birth or via naturalization.Name me one country in Europe, except Estonia and Latvia, which has similar situation - first and second grade citizens.
Let me get this straight - you think you have better idea how Russians in Estonia feel and think than we do? You think I don't have Russian friends? Colleagues? Neighbors? Classmates? Hell, my brother-in-law is Ukrainian. There is no "divided society" here, or "hundreds of thousands of disloyal people". To the contrary, our Russians are by and large quite sensible people, perfectly capable of understanding the POV I am trying to explain to you. It is true that among them is a small minority with serious post-imperial complex, not unlike Boers in South Africa, who still can't accept the collapse of USSR. Fortunately, their vocality is inversely proportional to their numbers, so if we hold one of our famous "SS-parades", they need to import protesters from Latvia and Russia, as per the news that started this thread.Don't trust me, just go to the streets and ask any Russian what they think about calling Soviet veterans "occupants", and language policy. They will tell you the same what I said. And you will have to deal with that even if you are 100% sure that you are right. It was your decision to get hundreds of thousands of disloyal people in your country, divided society and accusations in fascism in media, and these are your consequences to deal with.
I don't see why such interpretation of that doctrine - or such a doctrine at all - was necessary. Many other newly-independent nations claim historical continuity without such a literal interpretation. I don't think that it constitutes "a fascistic state", but it's a distinction everyone would be better off without.Therefore, according to ius sanguinis principle, only those persons that enjoyed citizenship prior to 1940 and their direct descendants
But for some reason significant number of such people exist only in countries with naturalization procedure.Considering we originally had something between 30-40% - yes I do. Maybe these people prefer the privileges they have as stateless persons to privileges they'd have as citizens?
They are not immigrants. Many of them were born on your territory.We have citizens and we have immigrants who have not obtained (or wished to obtain) citizenship. No distinction is made between citizenship obtained via birth or via naturalization.
Moldova, Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia - all were similarly "occupied" for 50 years.As to our unusually high number of immigrants - name me one country in Europe, which has been similarly occupied for 50 years.
I like your "via naturalization".And while you are at it, name me one country in Europe, which has granted, via naturalization, citizenship to a quarter of its present population within 20 years.
No problem. Talk to one of these sensible people (I'm readily believe they are sensible) and try to explain him that in your opinion, his grandfather is an occupant and people against whom he was fighting are freedom fighters. And listen to the answer.Let me get this straight - you think you have better idea how Russians in Estonia feel and think than we do? You think I don't have Russian friends? Colleagues? Neighbors? Classmates? Hell, my brother-in-law is Ukrainian. There is no "divided society" here, or "hundreds of thousands of disloyal people". To the contrary, our Russians are by and large quite sensible people, perfectly capable of understanding the POV I am trying to explain to you.
You are entirely correct. I brought up continuity, because this aspect explains, why citizenship was not granted to everyone.I don't see why such interpretation of that doctrine - or such a doctrine at all - was necessary. Many other newly-independent nations claim historical continuity without such a literal interpretation.
Thanks. Whether we would have been "better off" one way or another, is debatable. Personally, I don't think it has worked so bad for us.I don't think that it constitutes "a fascistic state", but it's a distinction everyone would be better off without.
I quite agree. Thing is, every commemorative event brings along a slew of outright lies in Russian press, which I even referred to earlier in this very thread, here. Makers of the video say the speaker is promising a Third World War, while absolutely nothing of the sort is being said. Such "reporting" is not an exception, btw.These Estonians who in WWII joined Germany, genuinely thought they were fighting for the independence of their country and didn't commit any war crimes don't deserve condemnation. But they don't deserve praise either. The morality of their actions cancels each other out. Their glorification is a Bad Thing.
Belarus, Ukraine and Russia were, uhm, founding members of USSR. Moldova, I believe, was part of Ukraine at the time. Not sure how that transforms to "similarly occupied".Moldova, Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia - all were similarly "occupied" for 50 years.
The same countries, Moldova, Belorussia, Ukraine, gave citizenship to all of their people in 1991.
Our own soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are routinely referred to as occupants - by Estonians. Which is an unfortunate truth I am forced to accept.No problem. Talk to one of these sensible people (I'm readily believe they are sensible) and try to explain him that in your opinion, his grandfather is an occupant and people against whom he was fighting are freedom fighters. And listen to the answer.
Moldavian SSR was incorporated into USSR in the same time and under the similar circumstances as Estonia, in 1940. As Baltic states, it also was part of the Russian Empire before 1917.Belarus, Ukraine and Russia were, uhm, founding members of USSR. Moldova, I believe, was part of Ukraine at the time. Not sure how that transforms to "similarly occupied".
Well, sorry to hear that, though I'm not sure they should be qualified as occupants there.Our own soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are routinely referred to as occupants - by Estonians. Which is an unfortunate truth I am forced to accept.
I think that every person has the right to belong to a state, considering the importance of nation-states in today's world.Of course it would have been possible to refer to continuity AND grant citizenship to everyone - like, I believe, Lithuania did. In that case, however, it would have been a political decision, an act of generosity if you will, not something to demand as human right or whatever.
While I know the (bad) state of Russian press well, still, two wrongs don't make a right, especially if one of these wrongs is on the level of citizenship and rights.Thing is, every commemorative event brings along a slew of outright lies in Russian press, which I even referred to earlier in this very thread, here.