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Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Gelion, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. holy king

    holy king Deity

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    a nation who fought alongside nazi germany to gain independence in the past has to design national myths who are in a very problematic relationship with national socialism to legitimize itself?

    say what?
     
  2. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I couldn't agree more. It is like the quite similar miltitary-based anti-communist, ultra-nationalist authoritarian movement within Greece which led to the military junta that controlled the country for so long, and which still exists to a great extent. It is apparently still the political beliefs of a large number of the people.

    But it also does no harm to point out what these groups actually are and what their intent is, as well as why the anti-fascists are still demonstrating against them.
     
  3. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    If they are a democracy that respect human rights let them do what they want. In democracy the people choose. If estonians choose to become nazi is their choice and have every right to do it.
     
  4. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    I only wanted to correct your anachronism as it made your argument a little wanting, atleast to my mind.

    You are quite right, there seems to be very little discrimination agains the finnish swedes in Finland. It might also have something to do with the fact that most of the finnish swede families have lived here for hundreds of years, and indeed many of their forefathers were finnish speaking peasantry, and their culture is very much engraved on finnishness itself. I think the sentiment towards them in Finland is different just because they have essentially been here for ever, where as most of the russian minority in Estonia was moved there rather recently. Regardless of that I think that hatred towards individual russians because of this is rather childish and harmful.
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    And once again, I completely agree that in a democracy that the will of the people should decide what form of government they actually have. Fortunately, this particular group appears to be fairly small and the majority of the people completely oppose their views.

    But the government that the neo-Nazis want in Estonia and elsewhere likely will not "respect human rights" based on past atrocities and current violence towards minorities. Does that mean they don't have the right to become Nazi?
     
  6. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    How it's their right to become Nazi? If they will make a democratic choice to send all Russians into concentration camps, it would also be their right, as democratic nation?
     
  7. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    Yes, it will be their right.
     
  8. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Estonia’s citizenship policy after the restoration of independence has been based on the doctrine of legal continuity of the state. According to this principle, the end of the Soviet occupation did not create a new state, but rather restored a previously existing state whose independence was interrupted by forcible annexation into the USSR. The first steps after the end of occupation were to restore the political and legal framework that existed in 1940.
    Therefore, according to ius sanguinis principle, only those persons that enjoyed citizenship prior to 1940 and their direct descendants - regardless of ethnicity or nationality - were automatically recognized as citizens after the restoration of independence.

    Those citizens of the former Soviet Union who immigrated to Estonia during the occupation, became stateless persons. For this group, it was made possible to become Estonian citizens via naturalization. The fact that most have successfully done so, is proof that conditions for that were not unreasonable nor overly difficult to achieve.

    Surveys have shown that the range of rights to which non-citizens are entitled, which closely match those of citizens, in effect disincentives many people to apply for citizenship, as this would bring about next to none material changes. They would, gain visa-free in EU, but they would lose visa-free travel with Russia, which may be more important to those with family or business connections there.

    The fact that we had to deal with the problem of stateless persons on such scale is not of our doing - nor is the fault of these people - but caused by policies of USSR and its displacement of civilians into occupied Baltic States - which, I might add, violates principles of Geneva Convention and with good reasons. I believe our solution has been fair and your comment "good job!" could be used without any irony.

    EDIT: @Formaldehyde.
    The wiki quote includes information, which is factually, incorrect, so I'll just point that out.
    As I mentioned above to red elk, the law intended to ban the display of both Nazi and Soviet symbols never passed. The cited source only refers to its first reading in parliament.
     
  9. Scrapest

    Scrapest Chieftain

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    Actually Red_Elk why is Estonia so important to you? Let us be fascists, communists, liberalists, naschists, nazists, atheists, deists, theist, racists. Whatever we like to be. It's our country that will go down the train. All the ethnic Russians are welcome to leave if they feel Estonia is treating them bad. All the ethnic Estonians or of any nationality are free to leave.

    We don't go pocking in Russias business to discuss their neo-nazi groups and report based on that, that the hole population is racist. Just as Estonians veteran gatherings that fought for the German Nazi army might be unique to Estonia the headcutting of foreign people is unique to Russia in Europe.

    See what I did there?
     
  10. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    After 20 years of independence, you still have 8% of non-citizens, and you call it not unreasonable conditions? Name me one country in Europe, except Estonia and Latvia, which has similar situation - first and second grade citizens.

    You will not make loyal citizens out of them, by forcing them to pass your tests. You will not make Estonians out of Russians or their children anyway. But you can make them respect your state, place where they live for years, if you will respect their rights.

    You are welcome to do that, if you want. Especially, if you see that such groups are supported by state in any way.

    Please remind me which unique law in Russia encourages or tolerates headcutting of foreign people.

    Well, I'm probably not the biggest patriot of Estonia on these forums, so the destiny of your country is not very much important for me. I usually don't start or revive threads like this. But if somebody asks me, or if I see that my people are being treated unfairly, why not to point this out? To me it's good enough reason to express my opinion.

    You are a college student, or former student, 19-23 years old, right?
    Ask yourself, how happened that you know all horrible details, real and fictional, about how 70 years ago the Russians were shooting your men, raping your women and eating your babies - and in the same time don't know who was earlier in power, Lenin or Stalin? Is everything ok with modern Estonian education, or it is a little promoting russophobia and destabilizing your country?

    I honestly don't know what you were expecting to hear from the Russians here - that Estonian policies are ok and those who protest against them are crazy nationalists? Not going to happen. Don't trust me, just go to the streets and ask any Russian what they think about calling Soviet veterans "occupants", and language policy. They will tell you the same what I said. And you will have to deal with that even if you are 100% sure that you are right. It was your decision to get hundreds of thousands of disloyal people in your country, divided society and accusations in fascism in media, and these are your consequences to deal with.
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    No, it won't. There's more to democracy than a simple "what the majority says happens".
     
  12. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    Its their country so let them do what they want. If they think that this is the best for their country, then let them do it. I dont support the nazi and i am against the nazi and the racist organasations but it is their country not mine.
     
  13. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Fine, if it's their right to become Nazis, the other nations can make their democratic choice too and do to them what they once already did to Nazis.
     
  14. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Considering we originally had something between 30-40% - yes I do. Maybe these people prefer the privileges they have as stateless persons to privileges they'd have as citizens?
    We do not have first and second grade citizens. We have citizens and we have immigrants who have not obtained (or wished to obtain) citizenship. No distinction is made between citizenship obtained via birth or via naturalization.

    As to our unusually high number of immigrants - name me one country in Europe, which has been similarly occupied for 50 years. And while you are at it, name me one country in Europe, which has granted, via naturalization, citizenship to a quarter of its present population within 20 years.

    Let me get this straight - you think you have better idea how Russians in Estonia feel and think than we do? You think I don't have Russian friends? Colleagues? Neighbors? Classmates? Hell, my brother-in-law is Ukrainian. There is no "divided society" here, or "hundreds of thousands of disloyal people". To the contrary, our Russians are by and large quite sensible people, perfectly capable of understanding the POV I am trying to explain to you. It is true that among them is a small minority with serious post-imperial complex, not unlike Boers in South Africa, who still can't accept the collapse of USSR. Fortunately, their vocality is inversely proportional to their numbers, so if we hold one of our famous "SS-parades", they need to import protesters from Latvia and Russia, as per the news that started this thread.
     
  15. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    I don't see why such interpretation of that doctrine - or such a doctrine at all - was necessary. Many other newly-independent nations claim historical continuity without such a literal interpretation. I don't think that it constitutes "a fascistic state", but it's a distinction everyone would be better off without.

    These Estonians who in WWII joined Germany, genuinely thought they were fighting for the independence of their country and didn't commit any war crimes don't deserve condemnation. But they don't deserve praise either. The morality of their actions cancels each other out. Their glorification is a Bad Thing.

    Having said so, I'd rather my government and our "patriots" focused on eliminating Nazism in my own country, instead of complaining against Nazism in Estonia.
     
  16. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    But for some reason significant number of such people exist only in countries with naturalization procedure.

    They are not immigrants. Many of them were born on your territory.

    Moldova, Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia - all were similarly "occupied" for 50 years.

    I like your "via naturalization".
    The same countries, Moldova, Belorussia, Ukraine, gave citizenship to all of their people in 1991.

    No problem. Talk to one of these sensible people (I'm readily believe they are sensible) and try to explain him that in your opinion, his grandfather is an occupant and people against whom he was fighting are freedom fighters. And listen to the answer.
     
  17. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    You are entirely correct. I brought up continuity, because this aspect explains, why citizenship was not granted to everyone.
    Of course it would have been possible to refer to continuity AND grant citizenship to everyone - like, I believe, Lithuania did. In that case, however, it would have been a political decision, an act of generosity if you will, not something to demand as human right or whatever.
    Lithuania could afford that act of generosity, because Russian population there was significantly smaller.
    Thanks. Whether we would have been "better off" one way or another, is debatable. Personally, I don't think it has worked so bad for us.
    I quite agree. Thing is, every commemorative event brings along a slew of outright lies in Russian press, which I even referred to earlier in this very thread, here. Makers of the video say the speaker is promising a Third World War, while absolutely nothing of the sort is being said. Such "reporting" is not an exception, btw.
    EDIT2: Ooh, I just remembered reading a heart-breaking interview with a taxi-driver, who complained how he, born here, is now branded an immigrant and occupant, while already his father lived here and built a subway in Tallinn! Damn sorry I don't remember which Russian paper or news channel published this.

    Unfortunately, there is no subway in Tallinn. Never has been.
     
  18. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Belarus, Ukraine and Russia were, uhm, founding members of USSR. Moldova, I believe, was part of Ukraine at the time. Not sure how that transforms to "similarly occupied".
    Our own soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are routinely referred to as occupants - by Estonians. Which is an unfortunate truth I am forced to accept.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Moldavian SSR was incorporated into USSR in the same time and under the similar circumstances as Estonia, in 1940. As Baltic states, it also was part of the Russian Empire before 1917.
    The other example you gave yourself - Lithuania.

    Well, sorry to hear that, though I'm not sure they should be qualified as occupants there.
    This is the consequence of joining NATO - but still it's your choice to make.

    So, in your opinion, Soviet veterans being occupants is an unfortunate truth which the Russians must accept? You already know my opinion, just ask your Russian friends what they think about it.
     
  20. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    I think that every person has the right to belong to a state, considering the importance of nation-states in today's world.
    While I know the (bad) state of Russian press well, still, two wrongs don't make a right, especially if one of these wrongs is on the level of citizenship and rights.
     

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