Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

[Scrapest]

You are welcome to do that, if you want. Especially, if you see that such groups are supported by state in any way.

Estonian government does not endorse such activities besides maybe granting them a place to gather by some level of governing as they should based on their veteran status. What do you mean by endorse anyway? Is driving protestors with ill intentions (like noteable football hooligans are done with) and allowing veterans to gather endorsing? If that is so then Estonian government also endorses Stalinism and Communism by doing the same with Russian veterans.

Also as you watched the news clip you might of noted that they got through.

Same way RT reported how in Ukraine I think they ripped of their badges and shouted insults at the Russian veterans Estonia was trying to avoid such commotion near the gathering. A clip of protestors was also shown with a deathcamp fence construction so you can't say protests were not allowed.

Please remind me which unique law in Russia encourages or tolerates headcutting of foreign people.

I may ask the same about Estonia endorsing fascism. Show me the law that tolerates or encourages fascism.

Well, I'm probably not the biggest patriot of Estonia on these forums, so the destiny of your country is not very much important for me. I usually don't start or revive threads like this. But if somebody asks me, or if I see that my people are being treated unfairly, why not to point this out? To me it's good enough reason to express my opinion.

You are a college student, or former student, 19-23 years old, right?
Ask yourself, how happened that you know all horrible details, real and fictional, about how 70 years ago the Russians were shooting your men, raping your women and eating your babies - and in the same time don't know who was earlier in power, Lenin or Stalin? Is everything ok with modern Estonian education, or it is a little promoting russophobia and destabilizing your country?

I honestly don't know what you were expecting to hear from the Russians here - that Estonian policies are ok and those who protest against them are crazy nationalists? Not going to happen. Don't trust me, just go to the streets and ask any Russian what they think about calling Soviet veterans "occupants", and language policy. They will tell you the same what I said. And you will have to deal with that even if you are 100% sure that you are right. It was your decision to get hundreds of thousands of disloyal people in your country, divided society and accusations in fascism in media, and these are your consequences to deal with.

Firstly nice, yeah I fall in that age gap so good guess. About messing up Stalin and Lenin that's the point. They are just names to me with little emotional baggage. It would be to me like messing up a bus time as the order of succession eluded me. Basing upon this and questioning our education system is of course an overly dramatic statement and I don't believe you even meant it. You were just taking a stab at me and my country for the big mistake as we are talking about that period.

All the raping and killing babies aside the country was under it's own banner before and then absorbed into an union. Then the people became "free" again and under the Estonian symbols and reasons. Some people did die and people were transported in animal carts packed like sardines so I don't know about you but to me that is a regime to be hated for. Also I take the Estonian notion of not wanting to belong in this union can be taken from neutrality claims pre-ww2 and the convenient MVP secret protocol that divided the country even before the war started. So in one sentence our view of the history is right as certain key events,stats,facts,relics tell the story for themselves.

How was it Estonians decision to get hundreds of thousands of disloyal people to this country? Why would any country want that? Seems like an illogical claim to begin with.

Soviet veterans who stayed here have their views and they view that Estonia joined the Union and they liberated Estonia from Nazis. Most veterans emphasize on the fact that Soviet liberated Nazi controlled Estonia and that is factually absolutely 100% right. Now Estonians emphasize on the fact that Estonia as a nation did no longer exists even after the first Soviet Invasion and annexation. Most countries at least see that Estonia was occupied and annexed and have declared it so my heart rests with ease.

No country would join a Union that causes that much damage to it. Be honest for a second. Would you like to live in Estonia under NATO in a "Union" if NATO started using NKVD agents to track down union enemies, use animal carts to deport your people, use executions on anyone resisting or of proclaimed higher class, ban your national symbols, force another language as the main language. I wouldn't even wait for a reply as you probably would not. Now I ask why did Estonia stay for so long if it so happily joined a union that would ruin a nation? Now I expect you try to explain how killing and deporting does not ruin a nation but help it grow.

 

[red_elk]

a nation who fought alongside nazi germany to gain independence in the past has to design national myths who are in a very problematic relationship with national socialism to legitimize itself?

Sounds about right.

 

[red_elk]

I may ask the same about Estonia endorsing fascism. Show me the law that tolerates or encourages fascism.

I just don't understand the point of your comparison. Ok, there is no such law.
Have you heard about Russians who gathered to behead some foreigners - publicly, with acceptance of society and under protection of Russian police? I haven't, honestly.
Your comparison just confirms my point.

Firstly nice, yeah I fall in that age gap so good guess. About messing up Stalin and Lenin that's the point. They are just names to me with little emotional baggage. It would be to me like messing up a bus time as the order of succession eluded me. Basing upon this and questioning our education system is of course an overly dramatic statement and I don't believe you even meant it. You were just taking a stab at me and my country for the big mistake as we are talking about that period.

I didn't mean to mock you with this, though such messing up looks insane for anybody who studied history in USSR.
The point was not to make fun of your educational system, merely to point out its focus on "terrible crimes of evil totalitarian regime" - in the same time missing very basic historical facts in other fields.

All the raping and killing babies aside...

Sorry, the historical data which you are presenting here needs to be... erm, carefully revised. I just don't want to open this can of worms.
The official Estonian data and numbers, which you know so well, originated from reports of so-called "Zentralstelle zur Erfassung der Verschleppten" - organization, created by German occupational administration in Estonia in 1941. With intention to use its reports in wartime anti-Soviet propaganda. Correct me if I'm wrong, this fact is not even denied by Estonian historians who publish such data. They simply took all existing estimations and pick the one with the highest number of victims.

In other words, official Estonian data about Soviet repressions are based on Nazi propaganda.

By the way, they include in the number of repressed people such categories as people, mobilized in Red Army and killed by Nazis, or even evacuated (not deported!) eastward in USSR, after war started. Documents from NKVD and GULAG archives exist, many of them are already declassified and need to be objectively analyzed. Preferably by non-Estonian and non-Russian researchers. According to some existing estimations, official number of repression victims is possibly exaggerated by 6-7 times.

How was it Estonians decision to get hundreds of thousands of disloyal people to this country? Why would any country want that? Seems like an illogical claim to begin with.

It was decision to make them disloyal by not respecting their rights.

No country would join a Union that causes that much damage to it. Be honest for a second. Would you like to live in Estonia under NATO in a "Union" if NATO started using NKVD agents...

I am honest with you - and not for a second, but for several days already. Of course I wouldn't like to live in a country which you described - the question is how far from truth is your "animal cart" country description. Stalin's regime was not exactly fond of respecting human rights. But all what happened, happened 70 years ago, not yesterday. Your country still repeats 70 years old Nazi lies about us and teach them to your kids in schools. And those Russians who live in your country have nothing to do with Stalin, NKVD or repressions.

About joining union - I can basically repeat an official position of Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs, that incorporation of Baltic states into the Soviet Union in 1940 was done in accordance with international law of that time. And later, de-jure recognized on international level. Estonia was recognized and legitimate part of the Soviet Union.

 

[Traitorfish]

And so what? If they like nazis let them be. As long as they dont create a wwIII i see no reason why we should criticize them. If they want to be nazi is their choice.

It must be nice to live in a world where there is absolutely no association between militant ultranationalism and racist violence, to take only the most obvious complication.

 

[Yeekim]

militant ultranationalism

Stay vigilant, else we might attack Russia for lebensraum!

racist violence

Indeed, we've already seen a beer bottle thrown at a general direction of a Jewish film producer.

Anyway, saying that "Estonia wants to be Nazi" is so far removed from reality that it is a matter for complete lulz.

 

[Winner]

Stay vigilant, else we might attack Russia for lebensraum!

Exactly!

Stop Estonian aggression against Russia!!!

 

[red_elk]

Guys, you'd better comment the claim that Estonians have right to put all the Russians into concentration camps - Traitorfish was simply responding to it.

 

[Lone Cat]

maybe they think that the activist is in league with Communism or 'Russian tyranny'

2c

 

[Yeekim]

Guys, you'd better comment the claim that Estonians have right to put all the Russians into concentration camps - Traitorfish was simply responding to it.

Why even comment something both completely embarrassing and so crazy that it runs no danger of being taken seriously by anyone? Traitorfish should've known better, imo.

Nvm I kind of did respond, in my previous post.

EDIT: Just saw that - can't resist:

About joining union - I can basically repeat an official position of Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs, that incorporation of Baltic states into the Soviet Union in 1940 was done in accordance with international law of that time.

Oh, the official position of Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs! How could we forget? It should be repeated here once more!

Of course, Estonia was not occupied! In accordance with international law, its own government petitioned to join USSR! And we know that this government was fairly and democratically elected, since the elections were held under ever-vigilant eyes of 100,000 Red Army soldiers. We forced the previous tyrannical government to abdicate, and the new one was supported by 92,7% of the voters! And don't we all know that Comrade Stalin would have never allowed compromising something so sacred as democratical elections. After all, the fact that election results were released and published in London a day before the polls closed only serves to prove that the elections were procedurally sound and received immediate international recognition!

Sadly, barely could gracious Comrade Stalin grant Estonians their wish to join USSR, when these same Estonians stabbed Him in the back and joined forces with Nazis en masse! This only demonstrates how fickle, how ungrateful is the nature of Estonians and that they can't be trusted. Even today, they fail to be suitably thankful for our self-sacrificing role in installing democracy and freedom to their country and prefer to sabotage our mutual friendship with their obstinate slander!

Yup, scales have fallen from my eyes. Official position of Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs has convinced me. How could it not?

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Some spam deleted.

 

[Traitorfish]

Stay vigilant, else we might attack Russia for lebensraum!

Does ultranationalism imply expansionism?

 

[Yeekim]

Does ultranationalism imply expansionism?

For me, if it is described as "militant", it does.

 

[red_elk]

Oh, the official position of Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs! How could we forget? It should be repeated here once more!

I like the official response of their Estonian colleagues more:

Estonia was treacherously attacked and occupied by evil communist forces, who killed 100.000 of Estonian men, raped 1 million of Estonian women and deported the rest of people in Siberia, using animal carts, refrigerators and oil cisterns! Our independent investigation proved that all those crimes were committed by NKVD agents - they left fur hat and empty bottle of vodka at crime scene, which clearly shows that the Russians were there. Our glorious freedom fighters joined German people in their rightful struggle against Soviet oppressors, but unfortunately it was too late - most of them realized that the war is going on only in 1944.

 

[*****]

I like the official response of their Estonian colleagues more:

If I were Estonian, I would regard the Third Reich as a lesser evil than the USSR. After all, the Soviets were the ones who snuffed out their independence. The Soviets kept them down for almost half a century. And to this day, the Soviet successor state in Moscow continues to harass and degrade Estonia. The Nazis were a brief crisis, the Russians are the permanent threat.

 

[Scrapest]

If I were Estonian, I would regard the Third Reich as a lesser evil than the USSR. After all, the Soviets were the ones who snuffed out their independence. The Soviets kept them down for almost half a century. And to this day, the Soviet successor state in Moscow continues to harass and degrade Estonia. The Nazis were a brief crisis, the Russians are the permanent threat.

As an Estonian I can say this is pretty much it at least from our side of the pond.

Truth be told there is no problem. 8% non-citizens will disappear in a couple of years give or take. Veterans on both sides will die out in like 10-30 years? Our Erna retk military exercise was changed to a different route.

I wonder what RT will report then?

 

[Tahuti]

If I were Estonian, I would regard the Third Reich as a lesser evil than the USSR. After all, the Soviets were the ones who snuffed out their independence. The Soviets kept them down for almost half a century. And to this day, the Soviet successor state in Moscow continues to harass and degrade Estonia. The Nazis were a brief crisis, the Russians are the permanent threat.

I'm no Estonian myself, but it hardly seems to make any sense. The Third Reich hardly granted the Baltic states any more autonomy and rights than the USSR did.

Also, if Germany had succeeded in conquering the European part of the USSR (unlikely, but just imagine), then the Soviet occupation would have been a brief crisis. The Nazis were hardly any better to Estonia than the Soviets did and if the Estonians wanted independence from Reichskommissariat Ostland, I doubt the Nazis would hesistate to use brute force to put it down.

Yes, today's Germany is hardly a threat to Estonia compared to Russia is today, but you mentioned specifically the Third Reich vs. the USSR.

 

[Traitorfish]

For me, if it is described as "militant", it does.

Why? "Militant" wouldn't in itself imply territorial expansionism in any other context, so why in this one?

 

[Yeekim]

The Third Reich hardly granted the Baltic states any more autonomy and rights than the USSR did.

Correct, it didn't.

Also, if Germany had succeeded in conquering the European part of the USSR (unlikely, but just imagine), then the Soviet occupation would have been a brief crisis.

Most likely, yes.

The Nazis were hardly any better to Estonia than the Soviets did

Well, the Soviets did a lot of dirty job simply because they were the first ones - so the Nazis simply didn't need to. They didn't need to imprison, deport or execute army officers, clergy, policemen, teachers, politicians, because that had been mostly done already. Instead, they could capitalize on initial hope (which faded pretty quickly) that they would recognize Estonian independence and on anger against USSR. These factors combined initially bought them enough goodwill that the regime didn't have to fight local partisans.

and if the Estonians wanted independence from Reichskommissariat Ostland, I doubt the Nazis would hesistate to use brute force to put it down.

Certainly. Hence, I repeat an earlier post:

Overwhelming majority of those Estonians who fought in German army joined/were drafted in spring 1944 and fought in Narva and Blue Hills. By that time, it was clear that Germany is not going to win the war.

The objective was not German victory, but to keep the Red Army out of Estonia until the end of the war, thus retaining hope for restoration of independence. That is made pretty obvious by the fact that these men mostly remained in Estonia after Germans had already withdrawn.

Why? "Militant" wouldn't in itself imply territorial expansionism in any other context, so why in this one?

If you say it doesn't, then I succumb to your understanding of your native language.

 

[Scrapest]

I'm no Estonian myself, but it hardly seems to make any sense. The Third Reich hardly granted the Baltic states any more autonomy and rights than the USSR did.

Also, if Germany had succeeded in conquering the European part of the USSR (unlikely, but just imagine), then the Soviet occupation would have been a brief crisis. The Nazis were hardly any better to Estonia than the Soviets did and if the Estonians wanted independence from Reichskommissariat Ostland, I doubt the Nazis would hesistate to use brute force to put it down.

Yes, today's Germany is hardly a threat to Estonia compared to Russia is today, but you mentioned specifically the Third Reich vs. the USSR.

In short Russia cast the first stone. When Germany invaded we were already occupied by another power so in a sense Estonia was already destroyed and lost. There was no Estonia anymore.

 

[Mallipeep]

I like the official response of their Estonian colleagues more:

source of this quote?

Sorry, the historical data which you are presenting here needs to be... erm, carefully revised. I just don't want to open this can of worms.
The official Estonian data and numbers, which you know so well, originated from reports of so-called "Zentralstelle zur Erfassung der Verschleppten" - organization, created by German occupational administration in Estonia in 1941. With intention to use its reports in wartime anti-Soviet propaganda. Correct me if I'm wrong, this fact is not even denied by Estonian historians who publish such data. They simply took all existing estimations and pick the one with the highest number of victims.

In other words, official Estonian data about Soviet repressions are based on Nazi propaganda.

By the way, they include in the number of repressed people such categories as people, mobilized in Red Army and killed by Nazis, or even evacuated (not deported!) eastward in USSR, after war started. Documents from NKVD and GULAG archives exist, many of them are already declassified and need to be objectively analyzed. Preferably by non-Estonian and non-Russian researchers. According to some existing estimations, official number of repression victims is possibly exaggerated by 6-7 times.

also source of this knowledge - that ALL the figures in our history books are being based on single source

also what indicates that this organization was intended to be used for propaganda?