Appropriate use of force by police

[civ_king]

It is unacceptable behavior. And I will not lower my standards just because she assaulted him first. This is not a bar fight.

So me clocking you just because and me clocking you after you punched me are the same thing?

This seems to be stated as if an obvious truth. It is anything but.

Those are part of the basic rules for "How to not accidentally kill someone"

 

[say1988]

So me clocking you just because and me clocking you after you punched me are the same thing?

No, but if you are a position to simply take one step away and remove the threat of attack without losing anything, then I will put it on the same level.

 

[GinandTonic]

She represented no threat to him. He has to leave his ego on the hanger in the changing room. Give her a couple of months (suspended if first offence), fire him and give him a couple of months in the secure wing with the child abusers, grasses and other bent cops.

Every time a cop does this it makes not only all cops less safe but all citizens.

 

[civ_king]

She represented no threat to him. He has to leave his ego on the hanger in the changing room. Give her a couple of months (suspended if first offence), fire him and give him a couple of months in the secure wing with the child abusers, grasses and other bent cops.

Every time a cop does this it makes not only all cops less safe but all citizens.

How do you know it wasn't simply a knee jerk reaction?

 

[wilycoyote]

A part of me enjoys this. Not because I enjoy violence, but because there is a double standard. If a man hits a woman, society comes down hard on him, and rightfully so. Yet, when a (admittedly weaker) woman hits a man, it is (at least partly) acceptable, because, after all, how much damage can she possibly do? This irritates me. I'm okay with the obvious inequality of chivalry, but a woman being able (and willing) to freely slap or hit a man is annoying. She had this coming. That is not to say that I would hit a woman that hit me. The fact that I wouldn't is what pisses me off about the situation. If a guy hits me, I enjoy the social freedom to hit back and the common assumption that I (or any man) would hit back in a similar situation.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

So we're all agreed, she acted idiotically and was in the wrong for kicking (at) the cop, and his reaction was unbecoming of a police officer and whether or not criminal charges came up, he deserved to lose his job?

Agreed, except him losing his job, unless this wasn't the first time. I think a warning, a withdrawn paycheck or similar would suffice for a first time offender as he was provoked.

 

[wilycoyote]

As for him being fired, I'm against it as long as this never happens again. Of course, if this is a trend, he should be gone.

 

[GinandTonic]

How do you know it wasn't simply a knee jerk reaction?

Check out the longer clip in the op. He knocks her spark out and doesn't raise a hair. There was no adrenalin fight or flight reaction from the cop. In the best case it was an ego issue (she hit me so I get to hit her back) and in the worst it was the casual violence of the bully. As the representatives of the states monopoly on force cops dont get to do either.

If you cant deal with an unarmed, handcuffed, drunk woman sitting on the ground your have no business being a cop. He could literally have pushed her over using his little finger rather than kicking her in the head.

 

[civ_king]

Agreed, except him losing his job, unless this wasn't the first time. I think a warning, a withdrawn paycheck or similar would suffice for a first time offender as he was provoked.

How about a public backhanding by the chief of police?

Check out the longer clip in the op. He knocks her spark out and doesn't raise a hair. There was no adrenalin fight or flight reaction from the cop. In the best case it was an ego issue (she hit me so I get to hit her back) and in the worst it was the casual violence of the bully. As the representatives of the states monopoly on force cops dont get to do either.

If you cant deal with an unarmed, handcuffed, drunk woman sitting on the ground your have no business being a cop. He could literally have pushed her over using his little finger rather than kicking her in the head.

I meant as a reflex like when the doctor taps your knee with the rubber hammer and it jerks up.

 

[Berzerker]

Officers testifying for defense argue that he didn't have any other options to protect himself.

Really? Cops got on the stand and said he had no other options? I'd fire these clowns and if that was his story, I'd fire him too. If they're gonna lie about this nonsense they'll be lying about the serious stuff.

 

[GinandTonic]

I meant as a reflex like when the doctor taps your knee with the rubber hammer and it jerks up.

That's nonsense and you know it. She kicks his ankle and he pivots his whole body in a snap kick. So apart from her not kicking his knee and him not reacting as if his knee has been kicked sure.

 

[danjuno]

If the cop does it repeatedly there might be a problem, otherwise, I don't give a **** about the fate of someone who kicks a cop and thinks nothing bad will happen.

 

[Berzerker]

then why would you care if he makes a habit out of it?

 

[danjuno]

then why would you care if he makes a habit out of it?

Did you see the word "otherwise"?

 

[Berzerker]

Yes, I saw it... Can you answer me now?

 

[warpus]

Really? Cops got on the stand and said he had no other options? I'd fire these clowns and if that was his story, I'd fire him too. If they're gonna lie about this nonsense they'll be lying about the serious stuff.

I don't think this is so unusual.. they'll lie for their own, doesn't mean they're going to be lying on the job about something more serious..

Of course the thing is that they shouldn't be lying for their own, but that's what you get with a police force that doesn't have an external auditor checking up on them every once in a while..

Cops policing themselves is a pretty bad idea.. Anyway.. /rant

 

[LucyDuke]

How do you know it wasn't simply a knee jerk reaction?

A guy that reflexively kicks people in the head is not fit to be a cop. Also, I'd guess it's not a knee jerk reaction because reflexes are faster than that.

A part of me enjoys this. Not because I enjoy violence, but because there is a double standard. If a man hits a woman, society comes down hard on him, and rightfully so. Yet, when a (admittedly weaker) woman hits a man, it is (at least partly) acceptable, because, after all, how much damage can she possibly do? This irritates me. I'm okay with the obvious inequality of chivalry, but a woman being able (and willing) to freely slap or hit a man is annoying. She had this coming. That is not to say that I would hit a woman that hit me. The fact that I wouldn't is what pisses me off about the situation. If a guy hits me, I enjoy the social freedom to hit back and the common assumption that I (or any man) would hit back in a similar situation.

Wrong thread bro. This would be just as outrageous if it were a lady cop kicking a handcuffed dude.

Agreed, except him losing his job, unless this wasn't the first time. I think a warning, a withdrawn paycheck or similar would suffice for a first time offender as he was provoked.

It was the first time on the job, as far as I have heard. (The first time caught on camera, anyway.) But...

He was convicted of misdemeanor assault back in 2001 after he punched a man who was jogging with friends in Cumberland.

Chris McGill said Krawetz, who was off-duty and driving his own vehicle at the time, veered towards them and almost hit them.

Krawetz said one of those joggers flipped him off and 'got in his face' when Krawetz stopped, but McGill and other witnesses said Krawetz waved his badge and punched McGill. Krawetz's family was in the car with him when the confrontation occurred.

District Court Judge Madeline Quirk said during sentencing that she "can't comprehend how an officer cannot hold his emotions in check and just keep driving. Especially considering his family was in the car."

Krawetz was suspended for 30 days following that misdemeanor conviction and Eyewitness News has learned that several town officials recommended to the police chief at the time that Krawetz be fired.

source


And an update on the trial:

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (WPRi) - A defense witness testified Monday that a suspended Lincoln police officer was justified when he kicked a handcuffed woman in the head.

In the fourth day of Krawetz's felony assault trial, a defense expert took the stand. Dr. Frank Gallo testified that, based on police documents and personal interviews with the defendant, he believes Krawetz's actions were justified.

"His use of force was objectively reasonable," Gallo told the court Monday.

In cross-examination, the prosecution pointed out that Krawetz changed his story several times from his initial police report to his personal statement, which was made available to Dr. Gallo.

"You thought that that was completely normal, in your expert opinion, that he recounted four different ways?," a prosecutor asked Gallo.

"Yes," Gallo responded.

source


Frank Gallo is a retired Cranston cop, and the crap he's pulling is the reason Krawetz pulled this crap. The only reason I can think of that good cops would protect bad cops is that bad cops outnumber good cops.


Another question for discussion:
How many other bully-Krawitz incidents do you suppose weren't caught on camera?

 

[illram]

The reason Frank Gallo is saying all that because he is being paid as an "expert" by the defense. Which is pretty standard operating procedure for a trial... but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion, maybe.

Sounds like the Prosecutor did a fine job making his testimony pretty worthless, however.

 

[Berzerker]

I don't think this is so unusual.. they'll lie for their own, doesn't mean they're going to be lying on the job about something more serious..

Yeah, thats true. Lot more guilt over lying about an unjustified killing and this squabble.

But after looking at the video again the guy could have blinded her, he could have killed her with a toe to the temple. On second thought I'm not so sure he should get a pass on this.

 

[danjuno]

Yes, I saw it... Can you answer me now?

If he does it ONCE, I don't care because in that particular instance, he was provoked, hence, the usage of the word otherwise. However if, he makes the same mistake twice (not being able to hold back his anger) then, there is a problem.