April 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Eagle Pursuit]

Noted and filed. Thanks.

It's just too bad this is the last patch ever, and your hard work on any future text changes will never arrive in customer's hands.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's just too bad this is the last patch ever, and your hard work on any future text changes will never arrive in customer's hands.

If it's the last free update, I guess that means it looks like that we'll have to pay for anything else.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I was specifically taking about bad reactions, not reactions is general. Most of peoples' negative reaction to the patch seems to be based around the idea that many of the civs would get "major" balance changes and the update video seemed to confirm that but Firaxis never said those were the biggest changes and that most everything else would be minor tweaks and changes.

Pretty sure you are just saying literally anything to float your boat at this point. If negative reactions are the only thing you will be focused on, everything will be, by the definition of your criteria, negative. As far as I'm concerned, and with many other people on this thread, no one from Firaxis has ever said how "major" the changes are gonna be, you choose to believe it, no one is out there trying to deceive you. The video "seemed to confirm it" or "confirmed it"? Because there is a big difference between what you choose to believe versus what is truly there.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

According to my list only 10 of the 50 civs weren't altered at all:-

No specific changes to:
** Babylon
** Brazil
** Cree
** Egypt
** Gran Colombia
** Indonesia
** Phoenicia
** Portugal
** Scotland
** Sweden

It's a bit ugly but here's what I have for each civ - as expected it ranges from incredibly minor to major rework:-

Spoiler List of changes per Civ :

Civ    Changes
America    Rough Rider: Replaces the Cuirassier. Upgrades to Tank (was Modern Armor). Prerequisite tech is now Ballistics (was Rifling).
Arabia    Mamluk: Combat Strength increased to 50 (was 48). Upgrades to the Cuirassier (was Tank).
Australia:    - Stronger coastal start bias; Digger: Combat Strength increased to 78 (was 72).
Aztecs:    - culture from the Tlatchtli.
Byzantium    Tagma: Combat Strength increased to 50 (was 48).
Canada:    - Mines and Lumber Mills in Snow/Tundra now provide +2 Production rather than +1;  Camps and Farms in Snow/Tundra now provide +2 Food; Mounties receive an additional build charge for National Parks.
China:    Eureka and Inspiration when completing a World Wonder; UU cost reduced
Dutch    Radio Oranje: Domestic Trade Routes provide +2 Loyalty (was +1) per turn for the starting city. Trade Routes sent or receive from a foreign civilization grant +2 Culture (was +1) to the Netherlands.
England:    Redcoat: Combat Strength increased to 70 (was 65); Sea Dog: Ranged Combat Strength increased to 55 (was 50).
Ethiopia    Oromo Cavalry: Combat Strength increased to 48 (was 46).
France:    - The Garde Imperiale now replaces the Line Infantry.  Changes to UI
Gaul    UU upgrades into Man-at-arms
Georgia:    - Faith bonus from Protectorate Wars removed; Instead, combat victories now provide faith equal to 50% og the defeated unit's combat strength.; UU replaces man at arms and is stronger
Germany    U-Boat does not require oil; Tier 5 river start bias
Greece:    - Hoplite gains +3 combat strength; - (Gorgo) +1 combat strength for every military policy card in current government
Hungary    Black Army: Combat Strength increased to 49 (was 47).
Inca    Qhapaq Ñan (leader ability): Added +1 additional Production to Mountains when the game reaches the Industrial Era; [Gathering Storm] Inca Terrace Farm: Now gives +1 Housing (was +0.5); [Gathering Storm] Mountains (non-Tundra/Snow) are now a Tier 2 start bias.
India:    - Varu now upgrades into Cuirassier rather than Tank
Japan:    - The Samurai now replaces the Man-at-Arms.
Khmer:    Major changes
Kongo:    - No longer receives additional Great Writer points; - Relics, Sculptures and Artifacts now provide +1 faith.; UU upgrades into Man-at-arms and is stronger
Korea:    - Bonuses for mines/farms adjacent to Seowons now stack with each adjacent Seowon
Macedon    UU upgrades into Man-at-arms and is stronger
Mali    Mandekalu Cavalry: Combat Strength increased to 55 (was 49).
Maori    UU upgrades into Man-at-arms and is stronger
Mapuche:    Major changes
Maya:    - Farms get +1 production for each adjacent observatory;  Maya start bias adjusted to provide more hills; - Non-capital cities settled within 6 tiles of capital get free builder
Mongolia    Ordu: Now gives XP to Siege units; Keshig: Melee/Ranged Combat Strength increased to 35/45 (was 30/40). Costs 160 Production (was 180).
Norway:    - Berserker now replaces Man-at-Arms;  Combat Strength increased to 48 (was 40). -5 Combat Strength when defending penalty now only applies to melee attacks.
Nubia:    - Production bonus for ranged units reduced from +50% to +33%; - Nubian Pyramid now provides +2 food, +2 faith
Ottomans:    UU upgrades into Line Infranty; Grand Vizier: Added +1 Governor Title when Gunpowder Technology is unlocked.  [Gathering Storm] Niter is now a Tier 5 start bias.
Persia    UU upgrades into Man-at-arms and is stronger; reduction in Appeal bonus from UI
Poland:    - Jadwiga's abilities now function regardless of whether she has founded a religion; her cities just have to have majority religions; - Winged Hussar now replaces the Cuirassier, with stats adjusted to match
Rome    UU upgrades into Man-at-arms
Russia:    - Cities now receive 5 extra starting tiles rather than 8; - Bonus Great People points from Lavras now require religious buildings (Shrine for writer, Temple for Artist, Worship Building for Musician)
Scythia:    - Kurgan provides more gold, faith output increased by adjacent pastures and Stirrups, provides tourism with Flight;  Saka Horse Archer melee CS increased by 5
Spain:    Major changes
Sumeria:    - Gilgamesh now also provides +5 combat strength to allies when at war with a common foe, stacks with military alliances
Vietnam    Thành: No longer provides a Great General point.
Zulu:    - Buildings in the Ikanda now provide +2 Gold and +1 Science;  Impi now 45 CS

Japan's Samurai unlock at Feudalism rather than Military Tactics.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Japan's Samurai unlock at Feudalism rather than Military Tactics.

Japan also now gets a Tier 3 start bias towards Coast.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Japan also now gets a Tier 3 start bias towards Coast.

On TSL Huge Earth Map, they won't have a problem.

 

[Alexadamz]

Radio Oranje is still weak indeed. And I don't understand why it is not closely related to the real history behind it. When the Netherlands were revealed, they said Wilhelmina fled from the Netherlands after the Nazi invaded and sent messages to her people to keep them strong and resist to the Nazis. If so, why not give some extra bonus to loyalty from internal trade routes while at war? Could be double the normal ammount and people would complain less. It would still not be really relevant - besides the Dramatic Ages mode, perhaps - but it would be better. Also it would historically and thematically fit better.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Japan also now gets a Tier 3 start bias towards Coast.

Japan's Samurai unlock at Feudalism rather than Military Tactics.

Thanks, updated.

 

[leandrombraz]

Did they stealth fix the "What would it take?" button in the trading screen? That one is annoying.

Also, I would love to get some confirmation that the AI is improving luxuries in the corporations mode, before I commit to a game with that thing on.

 

[slavaskii]

I think they made the Korea change because players were confused about the binary nature of the pre-patch behavior. This fixes that problem, makes the placement game a little more fun, and doesn't really change the balance of anything.

If you really want Scotland changes, then get a few streamers to talk about them all the time. I recognize a lot of the changes in this patch as being direct responses to the BBG mod and to streams like TGM and Potato.

I like Potato, but he and TGM aren’t representatives for the community. This precisely is how TF2 began to unravel several years ago. You had super vocal players, like b4nny, in direct communication with Valve and providing input that was ultimately disastrous. Competitive TF2, which was primarily advocated for by streamers, failed miserably because they failed to understand the community did not want this.

Case in point: during the reveal yesterday, everyone was LAUGHING in the chat when Korea and Australia got buffs. I respect that we have people here now answering our questions and monitoring our comments, but where were they last week? Or since we started commenting on the balance issues since release? I’m sorry, but just because Potato, Saxy, and TGM didn’t mention something to you doesn’t mean the rest of us didn’t want it. We were abundantly clear that Korea didn’t need a buff and that Scotland needed help, along with arguing that Radio Orange and Grand Embassy were useless abilities. Out of those four simple things, only one was addressed. I appreciate the fact we got a free “balance” change, but after paying around $150 on this game and all its expansions, I’m not comfortable being silent on this.

 

[Stilgar08]

Generally speaking a very good patch. It remains to be seen how it's working out. I'm especially interested if "AI is more interested in building districts and improvements" really works and lifts competitiveness.

...
Firaxis really shouldn't have put all of the good changes in the update video...

Yeah, because that's how marketing works.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the balance changes. Let's actually play some games and see how they feel before complaining about what didn't change and what still needs fixing. And here's hoping for a DLL now that NFP is done!

This exactly.

... The point is people have right to be upset if the game isn't working correctly and that devs are working on seemingly pointless things. Like I click the pet dog button and all it does is move the cursor to the move unit button. The tool tip doesn't tell you anything so why is it in the game? Is it a cute easter egg? Sure, but the game has real issues that need addressing right now...

Sorry, @InsidiousMage, I really do not intend to pick on you, but somehow your statements hit a nerve with me.
This paragraph is just in the same category when doctors and nurses get attacked for twittering because there is a pandemic and they need to focus 24/7. They don't and FXS Devs don't have to either!

Just checked and still no map search function on PS4.

Well, that's an expected bummer. A bummer nevertheless.

I dunno. I kinda feel like if you didn't expect the distribution of change significance to fall on a bell curve, maybe it was more a problem with your expectations than with Firaxis.

Again: this exactly.

If you excuse me now, I have a game to play.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I like Potato, but he and TGM aren’t representatives for the community.

Case in point: during the reveal yesterday, everyone was LAUGHING in the chat when Korea and Australia got buffs.

We're not representative either, Korea got buffed to help people who don't read forums or watch pre-patch videos ....

 

[JifMoose]

Also, I would love to get some confirmation that the AI is improving luxuries in the corporations mode, before I commit to a game with that thing on.

Yes, this is a big blocker for me. Can't justify wasting several hours only to find out the AI is totally hamstrung (it needs all the help it can get).

Likewise, playing on linux means time-consuming experimentation making sure mods work with new versions - no criticism of the mod authors, but if it takes a mod to fix the base game, only adds to the potential for a broken game.

 

[leandrombraz]

I like Potato, but he and TGM aren’t representatives for the community. This precisely is how TF2 began to unravel several years ago. You had super vocal players, like b4nny, in direct communication with Valve and providing input that was ultimately disastrous. Competitive TF2, which was primarily advocated for by streamers, failed miserably because they failed to understand the community did not want this.

Case in point: during the reveal yesterday, everyone was LAUGHING in the chat when Korea and Australia got buffs. I respect that we have people here now answering our questions and monitoring our comments, but where were they last week? Or since we started commenting on the balance issues since release? I’m sorry, but just because Potato, Saxy, and TGM didn’t mention something to you doesn’t mean the rest of us didn’t want it. We were abundantly clear that Korea didn’t need a buff and that Scotland needed help, along with arguing that Radio Orange and Grand Embassy were useless abilities. Out of those four simple things, only one was addressed. I appreciate the fact we got a free “balance” change, but after paying around $150 on this game and all its expansions, I’m not comfortable being silent on this.

I don't think streamers have much to do with them ignoring Scotland. They certainly looked at more than just what streamers think, and one thing about Scotland is that, even though the leader ability is a sad joke by now, it isn't a bad/unpopular Civ. Telemetry probably shows that Scotland is in a pretty good state, despite being obviously flawed.

 

[The Civs 6]

I don't think you can say that this tuning patch is disappointing, as far as a single free, monthly update goes. But tuning the civs felt like low-hanging fruit (can it be that hard to add +1 culture on the Dutch trade routes?) that they could have done one or two more times during the NFP period.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Whew, that's a long thread and I can't be arsed to read it all as usual. But here's my thoughts as I go through the notes... skipping small thoughts since I imagine there'll be a lot of thoughts.

- Are there still any unique units that don't replace anything, now that many of them have been re-assigned to the three new units?

- I like Canada's tundra farm buff, because they were pretty crap before.

- Did they just make the Chateaus to be like Civ 5's, lol?

- Honestly, don't really like Georgia's change.

- I do like Khmer's though. I think tall play in Civ 6 really needs buffs and few civs can do it well, but I'm glad they are making at least some like this.

- The Mayans seem to have probably the most things in their start bias list. Not really that relevant, but I think it's funny.

- Radio Oranje really needed a buff, and I'm glad it got one, but honestly it needed way more than that. Still, the Dutch are pretty good apart from that, so a weak leader ability may be just a balancing factor.

- Glad Nubia's ranged production was nerfed since it was really nuts before.

- Well, Russia probably should have been nerfed, so I think this is fair. Plus I won't have to manage a bunch of sleeping artists and musicians outside my cities for 50%/75% of the game now.

- Very glad Scythia's kurgans now give tourism from faith! This brings them in line with other unique improvements and I thought it was really severely missing before. Not that they are very strong for cultural victory anyway, but it's still a nice touch.

- Spain getting geothermal as a start bias seems weird, but I guess they rely on continental divides, so I guess it makes sense from that persepctive. I'm also glad the mission is earlier now, I hate when unique improvements are late because I have to plan my cities around them for a longer time. I am looking forward to do a colonialism-based Spain science victory taking advantage of their production increase

- Vietnam's Thanh nerf is kind of funny. So minor. But sure, I guess since you can basically build the district for free, you'd probably be dominating all the generals as much as England dominates admirals

- Zulu getting some science from their Ikanda buildings is nice. I'm glad to see 100% warmongering focused civs get some non-war bonuses, becuase otherwise I'd never play them.

- Berserkers no longer getting totally clobbered by archers will be nice. I do wish the stave church got a bit of a buff though, since it's such a heavy investment to get them for a civ that probably doesn't really need them.

- Mounties getting two park charges is certainly nice, although I generally don't have the room to build so many parks that this is going to make a HUGE difference (which is fine because they were fairly good to begin with)

- Glad Varu now upgrades to Cuirasser, it was silly having them around until tanks.

- 'Industry improvements cannot be built on Luxury Resources that are on Volcanic Soil.' why?????

- (Barbarian clans mode) 'Fixed an issue that prevented new Barbarian Camps from spawning.' Good, this was ruining the mode for me.

- 'Fixed an issue where the Coastal Raid command would not disperse a Barbarian camp.' RIP spiff

- 'Cities will not build ships for future operations if they are on a lake' Too bad, that was funny. But I get it.

- 'Saved Game Configurations will now regenerate map seeds and clear leader selections on configuration load to make this feature more useable as a way for players to save game types with various modes and advanced settings turned on/off. Players will still be able to use the Leader Pools as a quick way to save leader selections.' That's awesome, I never used this feature precisely because I'd forget to wipe the seed half the time.

- 'Diplomatic Quarter now has a unique district icon.' Good, that was annoying me.

> No fix for Hall of Fame on Switch, for like the 20th patch in a row
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Overall, while few of these changes are quite as huge as I was sort of anticipating (some huge ones are Spain and Khmer and Georgia's), I do like most of them and will definitely do a couple of games with changed civs.

 

[slavaskii]

We're not representative either, Korea got buffed to help people who don't read forums or watch pre-patch videos ....

I respect where you’re coming from, but was there seriously any doubt amongst the larger community that Korea wasn’t insanely powerful? If you go through the weekly civilization discussions on Reddit, it’s pretty clear that over there people are united in opinion that certain civs are better than others, too. Korea is frequently regarded as one of the best civilizations in the game.

But regardless, if Korea did get a buff to help people who perhaps aren’t as ‘fanatical’ about Civ as us, why not make the others stand a chance? Egypt vs. Korea is an impossible matchup, as is most others. I just feel that if the goal was to make all these civs more accessible and fair for ever player (as in a true balance update), certain things should’ve been addressed that ultimately weren’t. I guess my point is that I don’t feel like the game right now is any more balanced than before, and it’s this point in particular I’d like addressed.

 

[Kwami]

@slavaskii: The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and so on. The developers to read our posts here, but I'm sure that interacting with them directly is more effective. Besides, the community here isn't representative of the overall community, either. So, I'm not sure that our threads are any more valid that what the streamers want.

As for those four specific things:

1. The change to Korea clears up confusion over the previously binary nature of the ability, makes the placement game a bit more fun, and doesn't really change balance at all since you're not likely to get much more science or food out of it.

2. Australia got a stronger coast bias, but I'm not convinced that it was a buff. Harbors don't benefit from Australia's bonuses. It's true that coast increases appeal, but it also usually comes with a lot of flat land. I'd rather have mountains for appeal and hills for production. So, eh. The Digger buff is really just in line with the other unit changes.

3. Grandy Embassy isn't useless. It's a nice catch up mechanism on higher difficulty levels. Also, Russia is already one of the most powerful civilizations in the game. I think it's fine for Peter's ability to be weaker than the others.

4. Radio Oranje had its bonus doubled, so it wasn't ignored. And, it's actually pretty good. Every trade route is basically an extra monument. And it counts for trade routes sent to Wilhelmina, too.

We all have our favorites, so I guess some of us are happier with the patch than others, but let's not pretend that the community was ignored, or that Potato and TGM ruined the game, or that this update wasn't quite substantial. Because frankly, none of that is true. Not even kind of.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Korea's buff is so small that I don't think it's really worth arguing about.

 

[slavaskii]

@slavaskii: The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and so on. The developers to read our posts here, but I'm sure that interacting with them directly is more effective. Besides, the community here isn't representative of the overall community, either. So, I'm not sure that our threads are any more valid that what the streamers want.

...

We all have our favorites, so I guess some of us are happier with the patch than others, but let's not pretend that the community was ignored, or that Potato and TGM ruined the game, or that this update wasn't quite substantial. Because frankly, none of that is true. Not even kind of.

I'm not arguing over the truth in streamers influencing the game. I was quoting someone who was saying that if we wanted Scotland to be buffed, we should have had streamers talk about it more, and I thoroughly disagree with that statement. I don't believe anyone is more entitled to fix the game than the devs themselves who take an honest look at the general sentiments of the community. I appreciate everything the streamers do to keep the game popular, but if it's true (as the person I quoted stated) that many of these changes were taken directly from them and certain mods, yes, I have an issue with that.