Are Corporations Destroying Culture? Are They Preventing Us From Developing A Refined Culture?

[EgonSpengler]

This amounts to saying people are automatically right about something because of their race. I think it’s good to consider people may have a special insight into this issue and it’s good to hear them out but at some point certain objections are just unreasonable and people should be able to say that without the - I’m white so I can’t have an opinion on this - idea.

We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about behavior.

 

[Kyriakos]

I was going to write something about this, but I was already going too long. But since you brought it up, it's worth mentioning that it isn't all the same for everybody, and there's no reason it needs to be. As an Irish-American, I hereby give all Black and Brown dudes permission to wear a kilt as cosplay at a Comic-Con or whatever (trust me, your girl- or boyfriend will get a kick out of it ), and if any more Mexican girls want to cover Metallica on youtube, I am here for you. It isn't all the same.


Offense isn't objective, but I do marvel sometimes at how obtuse some people are.

Speaking of which, I found the picture of the girl in the prom dress. It's... um... yikes... Not only are the girls doing the faux-Asian thing with their hands, I don't even know what the guys in the back row are doing, but it's making me want to hide my White face. Was there not an adult in the room?

Spoiler :

It's the new generation - they grew up on Instagram and posting "cute" pics for likes.
I think that if there is no objective reason to think the girl wants to ridicule some asian country (by wearing a dress? must be a very touchy asian country Both Japan and China seem to think they are superior to europeans anyway so no fear there) then this is all hot air.

 

[NovaKart]

We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about behavior.

I thought we were talking about opinions on other people’s behavior.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It's the new generation - they grew up on Instagram and posting "cute" pics for likes.
I think that if there is no objective reason to think the girl wants to ridicule some asian country (by wearing a dress? must be a very touchy asian country Both Japan and China seem to think they are superior to europeans anyway so no fear there) then this is all hot air.

First, it's not (all) about intent. If you step on somebody's foot on a crowded subway, you move your foot and you say sorry. Second, from the NY Times article, I got the impression that it was as Asian who thought it was no big deal, and an Asian-American who was offended. My point was that Asians and Asian-Americans aren't the same people, they have different histories.

 

[Kyriakos]

First, it's not (all) about intent. If you step on somebody's foot on a crowded subway, you move your foot and you say sorry. Second, from the NY Times article, I got the impression that it was as Asian who thought it was no big deal, and an Asian-American who was offended. My point was that Asians and Asian-Americans aren't the same people, they have different histories.

I am not sure why then the girl should be in trouble. Ask 2 people, get 3 opinions, as always.
Then again I see no reason to think that an east-asian dress is a totem.

Besides, I am sure Dr. Venkman was a member of some Gama-Epsilon-Phi or similar fraternity. Those never existed in ancient Greece, but it would be ridiculous to claim they should be banned 'cause they have no tie to history

 

[Gorbles]

Someone posts a thing, and people invariably align as per known ideological leanings, and yet we're still trying to debate if the thing in question was hot air or not? It's obviously not hot air by definition. It's another thing in the cultural left-to-right spectrum that people are going to inherently lean towards or against based said left-to-right spectrum.

It's funny, too. The upshot is basically "people shouldn't complain about this relatively nuanced thing, because I don't see it as a problem". Cool. If you don't see it as a problem, why spend multiple posts on it? Let people have their opinions.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I thought we were talking about opinions on other people’s behavior.

Sorry. No, I was talking about the girl in the prom dress, and about Pom Klementieff's performance as Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy. In the latter case, my point was that Asians didn't appear to be offended, so I figured it was okay to just enjoy the humor.

 

[Kyriakos]

Someone posts a thing, and people invariably align as per known ideological leanings, and yet we're still trying to debate if the thing in question was hot air or not? It's obviously not hot air by definition. It's another thing in the cultural left-to-right spectrum that people are going to inherently lean towards or against based said left-to-right spectrum.

It's funny, too. The upshot is basically "people shouldn't complain about this relatively nuanced thing, because I don't see it as a problem". Cool. If you don't see it as a problem, why spend multiple posts on it? Let people have their opinions.

What? Here I was, starting with a highly moving story about how the dominance of ancient Greek architecture meant I could feel a little less alienated in London, and apparently you'd prefer it if I was surrounded by the white pyramids of the Ministry of Truth, Love and the rest

At least I could relate to the entrance of the Paddington train station. HTH would I relate to the Paddington Bear?

 

[Bamspeedy]

I was going to write something about this, but I was already going too long. But since you brought it up, it's worth mentioning that it isn't all the same for everybody, and there's no reason it needs to be. As an Irish-American, I hereby give all Black and Brown dudes permission to wear a kilt as cosplay at a Comic-Con or whatever (trust me, your girl- or boyfriend will get a kick out of it ), and if any more Mexican girls want to cover Metallica on youtube, I am here for you. It isn't all the same.


Offense isn't objective, but I do marvel sometimes at how obtuse some people are.

Speaking of which, I found the picture of the girl in the prom dress. It's... um... yikes... Not only are the girls doing the faux-Asian thing with their hands, I don't even know what the guys in the back row are doing, but it's making me want to hide my White face. Was there not an adult in the room?

She claims it was a 'Papa Bless' pose (some Youtuber, never heard of him, but who knows maybe she followed him, but it can be googled).
The boys look like they are doing the 'Vape Nation' pose.

Edit: Also, the fingers in the pose...Chinese poses are typically not with fingers on both hands pointed to the sky as in the prom picture and Papa Bless pose (or Indian poses).

Spoiler :

 

[Gorbles]

What? Here I was, starting with a highly moving story about how the dominance of ancient Greek architecture meant I could feel a little less alienated in London, and apparently you'd prefer it if I was surrounded by the white pyramids of the Ministry of Truth, Love and the rest

I mean, cultural appropriation as it is meant doesn't really apply to long-dead civilisations and their cultures. So there's that Also I'm sorry but London is an absolute mess when it comes to architecture, but hey if you like some of the building work there there's no harm in that. It's a lot better than Milton Keynes.

 

[Kyriakos]

I mean, cultural appropriation as it is meant doesn't really apply to long-dead civilisations and their cultures. So there's that Also I'm sorry but London is an absolute mess when it comes to architecture, but hey if you like some of the building work there there's no harm in that. It's a lot better than Milton Keynes.

So you don't like me.
Is it because I is black?

 

[EgonSpengler]

She claims it was a 'Papa Bless' pose (some Youtuber, never heard of him, but who knows maybe she followed him, but it can be googled).
The boys look like they are doing the 'Vape Nation' pose.

Yeah, here's a USA Today article about it, "What you should know about the teen who wore a Chinese dress to prom and that group pic"

Crucial piece of information: If it wasn't ill-intended, why'd the group pose like that? Some social-media commenters were not offended by her choice of dress, but found the photo in which the prom-goers clasped their hands together and bent over slightly in what looked to be a prayer position offensive.

Melissa Dawes, mother of Keziah Daum, told All the Moms that the group of friends' poses come from a meme created and popularized by YouTuber Ethan Klein of the channel H3H3 Productions. In November 2014, Klein uploaded a video making fun of a new Papa John's advertisement. The video grew in popularity among his viewers, and he would return to the jokes in many more videos to come. Over time, the phrase "Papa Bless" became embraced by Klein's fanbase as a reference to and praise of his various comedic videos. The clasped hands soon became a visual symbol for the "Papa Bless" phrase. Today, if you search #PapaBless on Twitter or Instagram, you will find dozens — if not more — of H3H3 fans posing in a similar fashion:

What about the guys' poses? Welp, you just can't make this stuff up. This is in reference to another video by Ethan Klein of H3H3 Productions, in which he essentially makes fun of vape culture and people who vape. In this video, Klein poses as a "vaper" in New York City, walking around the town and into a vape shop. Klein throws up the "V-N" gesture, standing for "Vape Nation," several times throughout the video.

Setting aside the fact that a writer for USA Today used the word "welp" in a published article, it does seem like this was an accidental collision of cultures. I have to admit, when I saw the picture of the group of kids, I thought it was curious that the girls who weren't wearing Asian-style dresses were doing that thing with their hands. I guess I just figured they wanted to be doing something together for the photo. I'm also curious to look further into Ethan Klein and his use of those hand gestures, if I have the time, but regardless of what I might find there, I don't know if it'd be fair to hold a bunch of teenaged kids accountable for aping his videos. Maybe, maybe not. One of the issues with cultural appropriation is that it can be insidious and pervasive. People may not realize where something comes from, or the history behind it (I'm reminded of at least one woman who, when confronted about her participation in the tiki-torch "Blood and Soil" march of American white nationalists, pleaded ignorance about what it all meant and where it came from - sadly, it's all too possible that she really was that clueless). That is, if Klein took that gesture from hip-hop, and then these kids took it from Klein, that could still be a kind of second-hand cultural appropriation. (To be clear, I haven't heard of Klein before, and I'm not aware that any Black people are upset with him, or with the kids in the prom photo. I'm just saying that I don't think cultural appropriation has to be deliberate, or even conscious, to be questioned.)

 

[Samson]

It is no great revelation, but the one thing I learnt for the last few posts is that I really do not understand the youth of today.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Yeah, here's a USA Today article about it, "What you should know about the teen who wore a Chinese dress to prom and that group pic"


Setting aside the fact that a writer for USA Today used the word "welp" in a published article, it does seem like this was an accidental collision of cultures. I have to admit, when I saw the picture of the group of kids, I thought it was curious that the girls who weren't wearing Asian-style dresses were doing that thing with their hands. I guess I just figured they wanted to be doing something together for the photo. I'm also curious to look further into Ethan Klein and his use of those hand gestures, if I have the time, but regardless of what I might find there, I don't know if it'd be fair to hold a bunch of teenaged kids accountable for aping his videos. Maybe, maybe not. One of the issues with cultural appropriation is that it can be insidious and pervasive. People may not realize where something comes from, or the history behind it (I'm reminded of at least one woman who, when confronted about her participation in the tiki-torch "Blood and Soil" march of American white nationalists, pleaded ignorance about what it all meant and where it came from - sadly, it's all too possible that she really was that clueless). That is, if Klein took that gesture from hip-hop, and then these kids took it from Klein, that could still be a kind of second-hand cultural appropriation. (To be clear, I haven't heard of Klein before, and I'm not aware that any Black people are upset with him, or with the kids in the prom photo. I'm just saying that I don't think cultural appropriation has to be deliberate, or even conscious, to be questioned.)

Did you see my edit about the fingers in the pose. Obviously not the Chinese pose. As your quote states, Klein was mocking a Papa John's commerial. Papa Bless was a meme for awhile. And kids and memes nowadays....

It is no great revelation, but the one thing I learnt for the last few posts is that I really do not understand the youth of today.

And the youth of today don't understand us 'old folks', and my parents didn't understand everything I did when I was younger. And the youth of today won't understand their kids.....

 

[EgonSpengler]

I recall there was a huge uproar when on the news a few years back when a teenage high schooler wore a Chinese dress to her prom. [...] Here's full the article if you're interested.

I read more of this article. There's some interesting stuff in there.

“To Chinese, it’s not sacred and it’s not that meaningful,” said Hung Huang, a Beijing-based writer and fashion blogger, in an interview. “Nowadays, if you see a woman wearing a qipao, she’s probably a waitress in a restaurant or a bride.”

Several recent episodes have shown that Asians and Asian-Americans do not always see eye to eye.

a Twitter user named Jeremy Lam hotly responded in a post that has been retweeted nearly 42,000 times
“My culture is NOT” your prom dress, he wrote, adding profanity for effect.
“I’m proud of my culture,” he wrote in another post. “For it to simply be subject to American consumerism and cater to a white audience, is parallel to colonial ideology.”

I guess I do think this is a little hyperbolic. "Parallel to colonial ideology"? That's social media for you, I guess. I don't really hold that against this guy much more than I hold the dress against the girl, now that I know what the unfortunately ill-timed hand gesture was about.

 

[Gorbles]

I guess I do think this is a little hyperbolic. "Parallel to colonial ideology"? That's social media for you, I guess. I don't really hold that against this guy much more than I hold the dress against the girl, now that I know what the unfortunately ill-timed hand gesture was about.

It's worth mentioning here that the virality of social media has a part to play - this is a person expressing an opinion on an opinion-driven platform. That said, prom culture is definitely a thing in its own right in the US (moreso than graduation balls or the like here in the UK, for example), which does raise a nuanced discussion of the impact of class and wealth on things like prom culture, and how aspects of it (like taking a "pretty dress") can be unintentionally appropriative (Chrome is telling me that isn't a word, but I know for a fact it is).

 

[Joij21]

I mean, cultural appropriation as it is meant doesn't really apply to long-dead civilisations and their cultures.

Tell that to the blacks who shout "We Waz Kangs!" every time some white person dresses as an ancient Egyptian.

 

[Birdjaguar]

A tempest in a teapot. High schoolers do stupid stuff. No big revelation.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Certainly, it's a very different dynamic from corporate dominance in US (and international) cultures, but it ties into US consumerism and the exploitation of culture for profit.

In that case, anyone who is offended should target the manufacturers, distributors, and vendors of the garments they find offensive for North Americans to wear. It's not like this student ripped off the pattern, acquired the fabric and embellishments, and sewed the dress herself. She's not the one making any money off it.

When I started living in London as a student, one of the most pleasant characteristics for me was that so many buildings had (ancient) greek architecture. It felt like I could relate, and not feel that I was a foreigner.
I don't agree with this whole "cultural appropriation" taboo.

So that's why you dropped a "like" on an old post of mine when I mentioned having a set of bookends that are miniatures of the Porch of the Maidens?

(those are still packed; I haven't put anything in the china cabinet yet)

Quite a number of years ago, I spent a weekend staying with a friend in Calgary. This was just before Christmas, so it was cold, snowy, and the roads were very icy... and at that time my friend had an overnight job delivering newspapers to some of the wealthier addresses there (The Financial Post). She asked if I'd like to come along and help, so I did... and we set out around 1:30 am so the subscribers would find their papers on their doorsteps/in the mailbox first thing when they got up in the morning.

Anyway, there was one particular address that my friend wanted me to see, and explained why: "It's got all these Greek columns on it and you took that history course and I want you to tell me what kind of columns they are." So when we got there (by that time it was around 6 am; Calgary is a big city and it was slow driving on the icy roads), I got out of the car and had a good look at the columns. As I recall, they were a weird mishmash that didn't match anything I'd learned in my classical history class (yes, we discussed architecture in that class), and I concluded that whoever built the place didn't pay attention to historical detail and just built it according to what they thought "looked good."

And while I was circling the columns and my friend was putting the paper in the mailbox, the lady of the house was up and coming to the door, evidently wondering wtf someone was doing on the porch, inspecting the columns... we left in a hurry from that place, not wishing to be confronted by someone who might have thought we were planning to break in.

I'd expect that if something is objectively offensive, you wouldn't even need to check with the representatives of that "culture" in the first place. But wearing an oriental dress doesn't seem to be objectively offensive - usually people wear clothes because they like them

In old carnival days here I recall that a couple of students would always dress up as indians, and the headgear was the coolest. Some dressed as cowboys, others as zoro (I won't even share what I tried to cosplay as when I was 8)

Oh, come on, you were never 8 (I honestly can't imagine you as a child, without that imperial regalia in your avatar).

That "Indian headgear" is ceremonial regalia that has spiritual and political significance. It's really not right to wear it without permission.

Was there not an adult in the room?

You're assuming they would have known any better?

We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about behavior.

We're all offering opinions about other people's behavior, and sometimes discussing each others' opinions.

What? Here I was, starting with a highly moving story about how the dominance of ancient Greek architecture meant I could feel a little less alienated in London, and apparently you'd prefer it if I was surrounded by the white pyramids of the Ministry of Truth, Love and the rest

But pyramids would also be cultural appropriation. Which country's culture depends on the shape and construction of the pyramid (I don't have any bookends shaped like pyramids, though I do have a set of Egyptian cat statue bookends and a smaller Egyptian cat that I usually put among the cat pet rocks that lounge around on the steps of the Porch).

I guess I do think this is a little hyperbolic. "Parallel to colonial ideology"? That's social media for you, I guess. I don't really hold that against this guy much more than I hold the dress against the girl, now that I know what the unfortunately ill-timed hand gesture was about.

It's popular now to refer to all white Europeans and European-descended white people as "colonizers" even if their family has been in the relevant country for decades or centuries. I don't accept being called that, as I had no choice over where I was born, and it would be pointless to "go back" to a country I've never been to.

 

[GenMarshall]

...and a conservative-leaning outlet doing some rather questionable phrasing on the amount of people claiming it's a positive thing.

The last thing in my mind was submitting the article for Gorbles’s certificate of approval from the Ministry of Truth .

This doesn't mean that you can't think it isn't cultural appropriation, but calling one side of the debate "rational" implies the other side isn't, which betrays no small amount of bias that you should probably account for when hyping up "rational" behaviour.

I don’t know what planet you come from, if someone pisses and moans on Twitter about a girl wearing a dress from China. I don’t exactly consider it rational when someone makes a Twitter storm about how “my culture is not your god damn prom”. In fact, I see it as a childish display to get your opinions across. Not exactly rational in my book and most other people’s book.

If I was in that girls shoes, I’d tell the guy to go pound sand and enjoy my time at the prom.