"Asian guys in my show? Not gonna happen!"

[NovaKart]

You're putting together an anthology.

 

[Hygro]

Of course Southerners will say the CBF is not a sign of racism when Southern white heritage is not comfortable with that sort of self-criticism, and in a place where charges of racism can result in degrees of military occupation. It doesn't make those polls valid.

It's like if I told a gay person calling something (pejoratively) gay wasn't a homophobic insult because I didn't mean gay people.

I think by and large we all continue to agree the racist depictions of the narrow hypersexualization of Asian women, the desexualization of Asian men, the requirement that if Asian men can kick ass it's because they studied a fighting system and aren't just badasses, that Asians are quiet and order following non-leader programming super nerds.... these are all media stereotypes and yeah we should be throwing cold water on it.

Ironic mockery of racism by using racist tropes works differently for different generations. If you were born before the mid 60s, it's less likely your mind goes that meta that easily and your takeaway is more concrete. But if you're born sometime in the 80s or later, it's simply unlikely good ironic racist-trope using anti-racism inducing material will do anything other than move you against racism. For us hyper meta, postmodernity-anchored younger folk, by seeing the absurdity that one would hold those racist tropes as valid is what makes it easier to undo racist social priming. It's not perfect, but it's effective.

The reason the above is not like saying "that's gay" is because even when done ironically it's often not well framed to point out the absurdity of saying so—it doesn't drive home the message in one skit so to speak, and repeat ones, rather than driving it in further, makes it less ironic. But it's still also good to find other ways to depict homophobia ironically to point out its absurdity and help us move past it.

 

[Crackerbox]

It's very difficult, isn't it, when confronted by three polls that don't agree with the assessment that Confederate Flag=Slavery and Jim Crow? That only 4% of Americans feel that way i.e. exclusively racist. What else can I say about that?
...

Link to video.
Kill Bill
Great White woman beats an army of Asian warriors


Link to video.
Batman Begins
Ra's al Ghul, who is Middle Eastern in the comics (obviously look at the name), then ends up being a generic Asian warlord played by Ken Watanabe, but.....wait for it....he's a White guy!
(Asian as martial artist and mystic and a cardboard cutout)

 

[jackelgull]

It's very difficult, isn't it, when confronted by three polls that don't agree with the assessment that Confederate Flag=Slavery and Jim Crow? That only 4% of Americans feel that way. What else can I say about that?

Who was interviewed? Polls don't really represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. This was probably conducted in the South, so the trend will be skewed towards not racist.

 

[Hygro]

It's very difficult, isn't it, when confronted by three polls that don't agree with the assessment that Confederate Flag=Slavery and Jim Crow? That only 4% of Americans feel that way. What else can I say about that?

That argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument?

An example of a valid argument is the essay I wrote above.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Who was interviewed? Polls don't really represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. This was probably conducted in the South, so the trend will be skewed towards not racist.

First rule of poll citing: it doesn't matter who was polled so long as the results support your position.

 

[Crackerbox]

It was three different national polls! Come on! This wasn't a poll exclusive to the South! As a matter of fact, one bit of the data they noticed was it made little difference where in America the respondant was from. Yankees and Westerners had very similar responses to Southerners. It's NOT a burning issue in America.

I get that you want this symbol to be racist, but regardless of this extreme tunnel vision sort of analysis, there is not a consensus whatsoever by Americans that this is exclusively so.

 

[Borachio]

Seems to me, Mr Box, you've watched a lot of movies you didn't like.

I can't say they're my preferred way of spending leisure time, either.

 

[Crackerbox]

Hell no, I love film. It's that almost always the Asian within Hollywood film falls into specific stereotypes and as such film critics have written articles about this. You'd hear the same thing in a Humanites class while at the university.

These films are real groaners because they have overwhelmingly negative stereotypes. It's just that people haven't heard complaints or seen them all at once in a single topic to compare them. I challenge you to sit through them to witness it for yourselves.

I can think of a handful of positive films like Dragon: the Bruce Lee story. There are several films in which the Asian-American is portrayed in a positive manner, or the cruelties of history are displayed. They're not without criticism.

Link to video.

Come See the Paradise is a film about the Japanese-American internment, but then Dennis Quaid takes the center stage of a Japanese event. There's no good youtube link.

Link to video.

Snow Falling on Cedars is also good, as the same theme and again Ethan Hawke is the one who gets the Japanese girl.

Link to video.

Flash Forward was a tv series in which an Asian male had a romance with a Black female.

Link to video.

These are very rare examples.

 

[Sommerswerd]

First rule of poll citing: it doesn't matter who was polled so long as the results support your position.

What is hillarious about this accuracy of this point is that the polls don't even support his position... he is just arguing that they do...

Even going off the poll he cites, 40% of whites and 66% of Blacks polled say the flag is at least partly a racist symbol and a plurality of those polled 38% say it should be banned from public, while only 20% said it should be displayed publicly. So obviously even many of the people who said it was a symbol of "Southern pride" recognize that it is offensive and shouldnt be displayed publicly.

The gallup poll/article is a little more favorable to his position... But heres the kicker... It was written 15 years ago!! Using a May 2000 poll as proof of current atttudes?? And even still it shows a clear trend away from approval of the Confederate flag.

Black-Americans in the South might not like the Confederate flag, but it is ubiquitous. Is it offensive? Maybe. Does the Confederate flag solely mean slavery and Jim Crow? Nope. Sorry about your luck. The polls I've seen show a split of what if means not anything close to a majority of opinion condemning it.

Nice try... I never said that the Confederate flag only meant slavery and Jim Crow. It also means treason, the Ku Klux Klan, white-supremacy, rebellion, the American South, Dixie, segregation, southern pride, secession, prejudice, the Mississippi state flag, racism, the Civil War... it means alot of things. However many of those things are offensive and do involve the legacy of slavery, racism and segregation. Do you deny this?

You tried to make the case that the Confederate flag was not offensive. That is preposterous. It is clearly offensive to many, many people, including and especially Blacks. Your whole "Asians are mistreated by the media" theme is based on the premise (a correct premise I might add) that many of the common depictions of Asians are offensive to Asians, but not as much to many other Americans, because those Americans are insensitive to prejudice against Asians. Again, it is dumbfounding to me how clearly you can see this when it applies to Asians but ignore ithe exact same principle when it applies to Blacks

I am not going to apologize for what Melissa Harris-Perry said.

You don't need to apologize for what she said. You should apologize because you selectively edited her comments to intentionally misrepresent her position. You implied that she supported the Confederate flag as a Southerner. She does not. She directly condemned it as treasonous and a symbol of treason (among other things). I've now made you aware of this mischaracterization, so if it was an honest mistake then acknowledge it and apologize. If you do not then you are being intentionally dishonest.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The gallup poll/article is a little more favorable to his position... But heres the kicker... It was written 15 years ago!! Using a May 2000 poll as proof of current atttudes??

Well, we are talking about a guy who is offended by the mention of automobiles because Japanese cars were deemed inferior in the 1970s...which probably less than ten regulars on this forum are old enough to have even witnessed.

 

[aelf]

The back of the bus was segregation. It was institutionalized by law and it also affected more people. There are much fewer actors, acting is a profession that's known for being difficult to break in to even for white people and I think most people accept that there are parts you would normally pick a certain race for - like you wouldn't pick an Asian person to play Henry VIII.

Of course most tv roles aren't going to require someone to be a certain race and people do still prefer white people for most roles so I do agree there is racism there but it's normally not as transparent apart from this man saying he won't hire Asian men.

So, once again, discrimination only really matters if it's institutionalised and if it affects a huge group of people? In that case, are you okay with men being denied opportunities to work in daycare because employers are afraid of hiring pedophiles?

 

[NovaKart]

So, once again, discrimination only really matters if it's institutionalised and if it affects a huge group of people? In that case, are you okay with men being denied opportunities to work in daycare because employers are afraid of hiring pedophiles?

I've never suggested it didn't matter.

 

[Hygro]

It was three different national polls! Come on! This wasn't a poll exclusive to the South! As a matter of fact, one bit of the data they noticed was it made little difference where in America the respondant was from. Yankees and Westerners had very similar responses to Southerners. It's NOT a burning issue in America.

I get that you want this symbol to be racist, but regardless of this extreme tunnel vision sort of analysis, there is not a consensus whatsoever by Americans that this is exclusively so.

By this logic if most Americans hold anti-Asian stereotypes those stereotypes must be true.

It was not in the interest of the previous epochs' elites to teach US history correctly. I think that's one of your points. So if most Americans are ignorant of the actual meaning of the CBF during its formal time of use, then those Americans are ignorant, not right.

 

[Bugfatty300]

It also means treason, the Ku Klux Klan, white-supremacy, rebellion, the American South, Dixie, segregation, southern pride, secession, prejudice, the Mississippi state flag, racism, the Civil War... it means alot of things. However many of those things are offensive and do involve the legacy of slavery, racism and segregation. Do you deny this?

Many of that also, by extension, applies to Ol' Glory?

 

[Hygro]

Many of that also, by extension, applies to Ol' Glory?

Not so acutely, the US flag also stands officially for the movements and legislations that brought justice and good as well. The CBF only flew in an official capacity under much less dynamic circumstances. The design is really pretty as flags go, which plays out unfortunate.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Not so acutely, the US flag also stands officially for the movements and legislations that brought justice and good as well. The CBF only flew in an official capacity under much less dynamic circumstances. The design is really pretty as flags go, which plays out unfortunate.

Yeah, the Confederacy rebellion was defeated and suppressed, the US has existed long enough to have eventually reformed itself in modern times. But, still it's not like tons of people don't view the US flag as a negative and offensive symbol for perfectly good and understandable reasons. So they are kind of the same.

So it's more of an arbitrary eye of-the-beholder rather than anything inherent in the flag or anyone who displays it.

 

[aelf]

I've never suggested it didn't matter.

I mean I can understand why people are offended but it seems like something just twitter activists would bother with. No one is making them sit in the back of the bus.

You said that only "twitter activists" would bother with it, implying that this issue doesn't really matter.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Many of that also, by extension, applies to Ol' Glory?

Yeah, the Confederacy rebellion was defeated and suppressed, the US has existed long enough to have eventually reformed itself in modern times. But, still it's not like tons of people don't view the US flag as a negative and offensive symbol for perfectly good and understandable reasons. So they are kind of the same.

So it's more of an arbitrary eye of-the-beholder rather than anything inherent in the flag or anyone who displays it.

This point keeps getting made and its a d@mn good, (albeit fatally flawed) point so I will go ahead and address it directly. Some of the differences between the US flag and the Confederate Battle Flag, and by extension, some of the reasons that it is much more acceptable to fly the US Flag but unacceptable to fly the Confederate Battle Flag are as follows:

1. The United States currently exists. The Confederacy does not (no matter how much some southerners wish it did). This has a several implications. Because the United States is a nation that currently exists the argument that its flag can't or shouldnt be flown is pattently prepostereous. Obviously the flag of a currently existing country must be flown, displayed etc. We need to use the US Flag, so on some levels the offensiveness of the US flag is irrelevant. It must be used. The Confederate flag has no such necessity, it is supperfluous, so its highly offensive nature is relevant in considering whether it should be used.

2. Related to the above point is the fact that the United States flag is the current, official flag of the United States. The Confederate flag is not. Attempts to equate them or equalize their value are fatally flawed. Arguments that state "Well the US flag is offensive too!" are erroneously premised on some equivalency between the two flags. There is no such equvalency.

3. The Confederate Battle Flag is the Flag of an enemy to the US, while the US flag is our flag. The CSA flag is a symbol of treason against the United States (as Melissa Harris-Perry so eloquently points out) No matter how much "southern pride" one attaches to the Confederate Battle Flag, it is still the flag of an enemy of the United States. And since the CSA was an enemy of the US until it was destroyed, there is no room for "Oh but we're friends now!" like there is with the UK flag or the German Flag or Mexican flag etc. The CSA lived and died as a US enemy and therefore they will always be a US enemy. When you fly the CSA Battle Flag you are flying the flag of an enemy.

4. Related to that point is the fact that the USA under the US banner, defeated the CSA under the CSA battle flag, along with one of the things the CSA stood for, ie slavery. One reason the US gets a pass on whatever offensiveness its flag has vis-a-vis the CSA flag, particularly on the subject of slavery is precisely because while the US was implicit in slavery, it was ultimately the US that fought to put slavery down, while the CSA was fighting to keep it. So the US (and by extension, the US Flag) has a redemption argument regarding slavery. The CSA does not because it dies defending slavery.

5. This is a minor, nuanced point, I admit, but still relevant. The US flag during WW2 is different from the US flag of today. If a Japanese person (or a non-Japanese person who was sympathetic to this cause) wanted to protest the 48-star version of the US flag that was used during WW2, I would consider that somewhat more reasonable. The 48-star flag is no longer a necessity, so the offensive nature becomes a little more relevant.

Another minor point is that Georgia's flag is also a CSA flag, its just an older, less recognized one. IMO its still unacceptable, but less-so than the Battle emblem (and the citizens of Georgia voted to adopt it (in 2003 IIRC). I for one can live with the Georgia version of the CSA flag (for now) if the battle flag is banned entirely.

So, if Confederacy enthusiasts want to fly the Mississippi flag (or the Georgia flag) as a display of defiance, southern solidarity, whatever, my argument is weaker against that. I think the Mississippi flag is offensive and should be changed but its Mississippi, so what do you expect. In any case, as I have already said, the offensiveness is irrelevant on some levels, because it is their official flag and therefore must be used. So if you want to fly the official Mississippi flag, until it finally gets changed fine, (well, not fine but you know, whatevers) but the straight-up Confederate Battle Flag, no.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Oh no! Was that me or someone else? Did I trip the Godwin tripwire by saying "holocaust denial?" Can I defend by saying that technically "holocaust denial" can be used in a contemporary sense to refer to people like Ahmadinejad and so it should not necessarily invoke Godwin? What about the fact that I specifically said I was not comparing it to holocaust denial? How strict is the rule?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point since mentioning Godwin's Law is an automatic invocation of Godwin's Law

All I know is it screws me over since I can't participate in discussions like this without using the most extreme example

It's really unfair!