Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[downtown]

I'm still waiting for a Mormon who is honest enough to publicly admit the supposedly mystical qualities and protections wearing their magic underpants are supposed to grant. These mystical magic underpants have been extremely well documented but members of the cult seem to not want to talk about them with noncult members.

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We've answered it before. They aren't magic...the word magic is never used to describe them by mormons, or in the temple...it's only a derogatory term given by non-mormons. Nor does the garment carry a promise of physical protection, although there have been claims of people being protected from burns by them. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Miracles happen after all, but if you shot me in the chest while I'm wearing mine, I would fully expect to bleed and die.

The temple garment is a physical expression of an inner commitment to follow Christ. They hold symbolic meaning to Mormons, and serve as a reminder for promises we make in the temple and to God. There is nothing mystical about them.

Is there actually such a thing as "Mormon conventions" out there?

Kind of. As Eran said, there are multiple regional gatherings for Mormons in certain age groups...there have been two this year for young adults (18-30) that cover multiple states. Twice a year, all of Mormondom gathers together for a conference, which is broadcast on TV (the conference center obviously isn't big enough to hold 14 million people, so if you aren't in Utah, you just watch it on TV or the internet).

 

[downtown]

How close to the truth comes the Southpark episode "All About Mormons" and how was it received among mormons?
I understand that the scientology episode was 100% accurate and outraged that so called church.

I think it is a fairly accurate depiction of parts of LDS church "culture", but it is not completely accurate as far as the history or theology goes. It was kinda funny though.

 

[Cheetah]

I met a Mormon today!

That's something that doesn't happen every day.

So yeah, I met a Mormon missionary here in Stavanger today. That's the first time ever I've met one (not sure if that says more about me or them), so I wanted to make a post about it. Some thoughts, in no particular order:

- She was friendly and pleasant to talk to. Then again, I guess it's hard to proselyte while being rude and obnoxious.

- She was from Las Vegas. Though her family had moved to Texas while she was away, and she was studying music in Utah. I.e. yet more proof that Mormon missionaries are, like, normal people.

- She spoke incredibly good Norwegian! She had only had a 9-week course before she left and had been here for 13 months now. So she was leaving by Christmas-time. But I'm really impressed! Most U.S. Americans can't even get their English grammar correct!

- She gave more or less the same answer as I've gotten from CFC-Mormons regarding why I'm not allowed into the temple. Which would be a good answer, if I'd accept the premise that the temple is so much more holier than churches, cathedrals and the like.

- I'm always thinking really hard when meeting religious people in real life and talking about religion. Which was a topic that was kinda unavoidable here. I really don't want to be offensive and rude, especially face to face. And seeing as I'm basically seeing all religions as false, and could go on for a long time with all the critical questions that normally come up, I'm always unsure how far I should go. Is it bad form to bring up criticism of Mormonism while talking to a missionary? How far is too far?

- Should I feel bad for wasting her time? It's not like she ever stood a chance in even trying to convert me. I didn't say directly that I wouldn't be interested no matter how much we talked, but I'd think maybe she'd figure out that if I have a good understanding of why I don't believe and also managed to show off quite a bit of knowledge regarding Mormonism, then she wouldn't get very far.

- She told me there are six missionaries in Stavanger! Six! Just for Stavanger. Isn't that a bit of an overkill? She even admitted she runs into the same people a couple of times.

- From what she told me, Norwegians are generally friendly towards them. Though I forgot to ask if they have much success at getting new members among Norwegians.

- She of course invited me to the church and told the prophet is having a speech now soon, which I was also invited to watch either at church or online. Got me thinking that if I didn't know much about Mormonism I would have been highly skeptical to any organisation which has such a thing as a prophet. I think I'm having a hard time accepting the (possible) idea that an actual prophet can actually exist in the modern world. I find it easier to accept that a real prophet could exist in pre-modern times. Not that there is much logic behind that I think.

- She was kinda cute. Would there have been any point at all in trying to hit on her?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I met a Mormon today!

Just one?

That's something that doesn't happen every day.

Not in Norway, I guess. They are all over the place in places like Los Angeles though.

- She was friendly and pleasant to talk to. Then again, I guess it's hard to proselyte while being rude and obnoxious.

Plus, it REALLY helps in dealing with people, especially the rude ones.

- She was from Las Vegas. Though her family had moved to Texas while she was away, and she was studying music in Utah. I.e. yet more proof that Mormon missionaries are, like, normal people.

Well, most of us . . .

- She spoke incredibly good Norwegian! She had only had a 9-week course before she left and had been here for 13 months now. So she was leaving by Christmas-time. But I'm really impressed! Most U.S. Americans can't even get their English grammar correct!

She would have spent 40-70 hours a week in that 9-week course either learning or at least using Norwegian. So that helps.

- I'm always thinking really hard when meeting religious people in real life and talking about religion. Which was a topic that was kinda unavoidable here. I really don't want to be offensive and rude, especially face to face. And seeing as I'm basically seeing all religions as false, and could go on for a long time with all the critical questions that normally come up, I'm always unsure how far I should go. Is it bad form to bring up criticism of Mormonism while talking to a missionary? How far is too far?

Well, it's certainly fair to ask questions, even hard ones. And I guess that if she is trying to convince you her views are right, you are allowed to explain yours.

- Should I feel bad for wasting her time? It's not like she ever stood a chance in even trying to convert me. I didn't say directly that I wouldn't be interested no matter how much we talked, but I'd think maybe she'd figure out that if I have a good understanding of why I don't believe and also managed to show off quite a bit of knowledge regarding Mormonism, then she wouldn't get very far.

Most conversations that missionaries have with people don't end in conversions, but that doesn't mean they were a waste of time.

- She told me there are six missionaries in Stavanger! Six! Just for Stavanger. Isn't that a bit of an overkill? She even admitted she runs into the same people a couple of times.

Missionaries are basically allocated according to how effective it will be. I don't know how big Stavanger is, but like I said, there are probably more missionaries per capita in places like Latin America than Europe, for example.

- She was kinda cute. Would there have been any point at all in trying to hit on her?

Probably not. Putting your normal social life on hold is part of the missionary experience, and that definitely includes dating.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Plotinus]

I think I'm having a hard time accepting the (possible) idea that an actual prophet can actually exist in the modern world. I find it easier to accept that a real prophet could exist in pre-modern times. Not that there is much logic behind that I think.

It depends on what you mean by "prophet". It doesn't necessarily mean someone who foretells the future. In Christianity it's tended to mean someone with charismatic authority - that is what it seems to mean in the New Testament and other early Christian texts, where at least some forms of Christianity had itinerant "prophets" who travelled from church to church and ran things. In the modern world, "prophets" of this kind have been especially important in African Christianity in the twentieth century. Probably the most well known was William Wade "the Prophet" Harris, but there were plenty of others, easily recognisable by their white robes, staff (a vital sign of prophecy), and many wives.

 

[downtown]

Yeah, Thomas Monson is lacking in the fancy robes and attire, and isn't even what I would call an especially charamastic force.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Thing that amused me at General Conference:

Usually, they announce where new temples are being built. There are ~130 temples worldwide built or planned, and usually having a temple built in a place that didn't have one is a sign the church is growing there.

They announced temples in South Africa and Colombia (which already have one temple each), Paris, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and - THIS was what drew gasps of amazement from the congregation - Wyoming.

 

[downtown]

Haha, I laughed at that too. BTW, why was President Monson late to the first session? He rolled in like an hour into it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Apparently he ran into a traffic jam. Go figure . . .

 

[Cheetah]

It depends on what you mean by "prophet". It doesn't necessarily mean someone who foretells the future. In Christianity it's tended to mean someone with charismatic authority - that is what it seems to mean in the New Testament and other early Christian texts, where at least some forms of Christianity had itinerant "prophets" who travelled from church to church and ran things. In the modern world, "prophets" of this kind have been especially important in African Christianity in the twentieth century. Probably the most well known was William Wade "the Prophet" Harris, but there were plenty of others, easily recognisable by their white robes, staff (a vital sign of prophecy), and many wives.

Huh...

Well, maybe I'm completely off here, but I always thought a prophet had to have some more "reliable" connection to a god than other people, so that he could get more direct and clear messages from the god and would be able to explain the god's will.

[...] and - THIS was what drew gasps of amazement from the congregation - Wyoming.

'It's tough to be a prophet in one's own land' I suppose.

 

[Plotinus]

Huh...

Well, maybe I'm completely off here, but I always thought a prophet had to have some more "reliable" connection to a god than other people, so that he could get more direct and clear messages from the god and would be able to explain the god's will.

If that's the definition of a prophet, doesn't pretty much every religion have people like that?

 

[holy king]

if that's the defintion of prophet the catholic church has millions of them on their payroll.

 

[Cheetah]

Don't look at me! I'm not the theologian here!

That's just the kind of understanding I've gotten from Sunday School and pop-culture...

 

[Plotinus]

Well, my point was, if that's what you understand "prophet" to be, it's odd that you should consider it so strange that the Mormons have them, since all religions do, though they may not use that term. That's all!

 

[Cheetah]

Well, yeah. All religions have them, but that wasn't what I was reacting to.

I just find it strange that religions have prophets in this day and age. I suppose it's a feeling of "But this is the modern world! They should know better now!".

 

[Plotinus]

I see - you share Bultmann's view, or something like it:

It is impossible to use electrical light and the wireless and to avail ourselves of modern medical and surgical discoveries, and at the same time to believe in the New Testament world of spirits and miracles.

Interestingly, that's a quote that is oft repeated by modern theologians, and yet it's quite obviously false, since there are plenty of people who do precisely what Bultmann thinks impossible. Sentiments of this kind sound initially plausible, but when one asks what it is about modern technology, or "this day and age", that is so inconsistent with belief in the supernatural or whatever it is, I'm not sure if there's really a convincing answer. Still, this is perhaps not an issue of direct relevance to this thread.

 

[Cheetah]

No, I feel it is probably getting a bit off-topic, (but still!):

I couldn't agree with the literary meaning of that quote, but perhaps the implicit idea behind it. There is nothing about electricity, wireless communication or modern medicine that, by their mere existence, makes things like spirits and miracles impossible. But there is still the idea that since we know so much more of how the world works these days, it should be harder to accept the miracles or spirits exist. Or at least there should be less need for it I'd think.

 

[downtown]

Since we've had a couple of threads on Mitt Romney fall into questions on LDS theology, I thought it might be appropriate to bump this thread again. Questions about that sort of thing are best asked here.

 

[Josu]

Some years ago, when my father got retired, he started to develop our family tree (develop is OK here?)
While doing the task he read somewhere that mormons were developing a kind of global family tree.

How far is this true?
What is the aim of this?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Some years ago, when my father got retired, he started to develop our family tree (develop is OK here?)
While doing the task he read somewhere that mormons were developing a kind of global family tree.

How far is this true?

Fairly true - in the sense that the Church puts a lot of resources into genealogical research, and encourages members to trace their own ancestry as much as possible.

We don't actually think that it's possible to develop anything like a "global family tree" - far too many humans lived before record keeping or even writing existed in their society.

What is the aim of this?

Our belief that certain rituals and ordinances (such as baptism) by proper authority are a necessary part of salvation - since, obviously, most people never had a chance to receive these ordinances, and being denied salvation simply because of the circumstances of your birth doesn't make sense to us, we perform them on behalf of the dead. This requires knowing who they are, so members are encouraged to identify their ancestors.