Ask a Pole

[Veles]

...
I like pierogi ruskie (ruthenian pierogi), which are dumplings stuffed with cheese (quark?).

Why you people use the word "Ruthenian"? Rusky means Russian By the way, what you call peirogi apparently isn't what we call this name. In Russia pirogi or pirojki is just any pie or small pies like this:

Spoiler :

And this we call pel'meni:

Spoiler :

I love polish soups, like barszcz (especially speciall holiday barszcz with dumplings filled with mushrooms); sorrel soup; mushroom soup; tomato soup, pea soup, which is served with toasts and so many more.

Sounds very similiar to Russian cuisine. And by barszcz you apparently mean what we call borsch.

Spoiler :

I love polish bread.

Is it anything like Russian rye bread?

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[strijder20]

Are you the North or the South one?

 

[holy king]

is it true that about 70 percent of the polish cuisine is some kind of stew?

 

[Squonk]

Why you people use the word "Ruthenian"? Rusky means Russian

Actually, "Ruski" means "Ruthenian", as in "Kievan Rus' (Ruthenia)". Its second meaning is a slur name for Russians. "Russian" is "rosyjski".

By the way, what you call peirogi apparently isn't what we call this name. In Russia pirogi or pirojki is just any pie or small pies like this:

heretic Russians changing the meaning of slavic words

Sounds very similiar to Russian cuisine. And by barszcz you apparently mean what we call borsch.

Yes. Probably there are so differences, and there's also "white barszcz", which is somewhat different (I used to hate it, now I really enjoy it, one of better soups, actually)

Is it anything like Russian rye bread?

Spoiler :

There are different kinds of bread. Including some dark ones (which I usually dislike. Actually, lately I've been buying some dark "russian bread", which I like also). But they're surely not made of rye, just of unpeeled corn or something.

I've heard that a lot of Poles hate Muslims, is that true?

I don't think so. Poland has a much bigger tradition of peaceful interaction with muslims than western Europe: the Tatar muslim presence in Poland dates from XIV century and there were Tatar muslim regiments in polish army all the way since Middle Ages to ww2. And Polish Tatars have good reputation as good patriots. I don't think Poles like islam or muslims in general, but certainly no more than other countries. And officially the relations are really good, At least with the Tatar community. The muslims in Poland are officially split into two separate religious groups, one dominated by Tatars, who appear to be more liberal (despite the mufti having studied in Saudi Arabia), and the second one dominated by recent muslim immigrants.
Here's for example the president with the mufti during ceremony of erection of a monument of a Polish Tatar:

Spoiler :

Also, while one polish tradition presented Poland as the shield of christianity etc, Turkey was very popular in Poland. Polish national dress is of turkish origin to some extent. We often had extremly good relations with Turkey. During XIX century, many important Poles emmigrated to Turkey, and some converted to islam even, like general Bem, one of the leaders of polish national uprising (as well as the hungarian one), a person indeed revered in Poland, present on the old 10 zloty banknote:

Spoiler :

There was a tradition saying that allegedly, Turkey was the only country that didn't accept the partages of Poland and that when the embassadors were called, the polish embassador was always called too (while there was none), to emphasised that. Another tradition was that Poland will regain independance only "after a Turk will quench his horses' thirst in Vistula river", and I believe after Poland did regain independance, some Turk was brought, put on a horse and made go to Vistula etc, so that it would indeed come true etc.

 

[Veles]

Actually, "Ruski" means "Ruthenian", as in "Kievan Rus' (Ruthenia)".

Exactly. It apparently was a Polish tradition to differentiate between the terms "Russia" and "Rus'" as if they were two different things. Apparently it was done to justify the claim on Russian part of Lithuania. So they invented some mythical Ruthenia. Sheesh.

Russian word for "a Russian" is Russkiy. It's a noun made of adjective. It's also an adjective to describe everything Russian. In our language Ruskiy (Русски&#1081 exaclty means of the Rus'. See, in the self-conciouseness of our nation, Modern Russia is a direct continuation of the Old Rus' of Kiev and Novgord and Vladimir and Polotsk etc. It's the same state which simply got bigger and awesomer.

Rossiyski or Rossiyanin used to be a synonym for Russkiy in XVI-XIX centuries due to Hellenization of the word Rus' to Ρωσία. Nowadays it's a politically correct word to describe all the Russians, including non-Slavic dudes, like Kalmyks or Tartars. Russian Slavs though generally prefer to describe themselves as Russkie.

Its second meaning is a slur name for Russians. "Russian" is "rosyjski".

I demand Polish people to remove ALL the negative connotations they have with the word Russkiy immediately and completely.

...heretic Russians changing the meaning of slavic words

lol u mad, broski?

Actually, it comes from the word pir, which means feast, so it could refer to anything edible Interesting to note, that South Slavs doesn't have that word.


What about Kvas? You has it?

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[warpus]

kwas = acid

in Polish

 

[Veles]

I meant Kwas chlebowy. And in Russian that word means fermenation.

 

[Squonk]

Yes, we do have kwas chlebowy, obviously. It's not very popular, though. I've once heard that Wladyslaw Gomulka tried to present it as a polish responce to coca-cola or something, but it didn't catch on, just like his idea to eat polish sauerkraut with the tea instead of the lemon. Or returning to gathering wood in forests in times of coal shortages.

 

[Veles]

^ These are all very sensible things. Except the cabbge in tea
One brand of kvas here had a slogan "Net colanizatsii! Kvas - zdorovie natsii."

And what about my rant? You still think Rus' is Ruthenia, not Russia?

 

[Squonk]

Obviously. Ruś is the tradition of Kievan Rus'. And where is it? In Ukraine. Ukraine has a better claim to this tradition. Obviously Russia descends from Kievan Rus' as well, Belarus as well. But Russia at these times were some north, sparcely populated borderlands and areas not colonised by Slavs yet. Margins. Obviously later on these margins rose in power and dominate over other Ruthenians, but Rus (Ruthenia) =/= Russia.

 

[Veles]

By that logic are Russians Ruthenians too?

...But Russia at these times were some north, sparcely populated borderlands and areas not colonised by Slavs yet.

Bro, by that time it was colonised alright. Smolensk, Vladimir, Yaroslavl', Murom, Riazan', Kostroma, Galich Merskiy were all pretty big and rich cities. Not to mention Novgorod and Pskov, which were among the major cities in Europe.

When Kiev was destroyed by Mongols, majority of people fled in heavily forested North - modern Russia. What is modren Ukraine was completely plundered, burnt and depopulated almost totally. Nobilty and clergy with all the treasures moved to Vladimir-on-Klyazma, the "veliki stol" (capital) was officially moved there, along with the Metropolitan see. Later, one of the knyazi of Vladimir established the fortress of Moscow, which came to be a rich city and a center of new reconquista, which was accomplished by the same later knyazi of Vladimir. Then from Moscovia the Rus' was restored, revenged the Mongols by almost wiping them totally, and went beyond what it had territorially.

Modern Ukraine originates from Hetmanate, Zaporozhian Sech and Galicia-Volyn', repopulated by cossacks (a tatar word) - remnant Slavs and all sorts of runaways who adopted some turkic features and ways. But they were primarily Slavic still.

And also you must surely know, the principle and the first city of Rus' was Novgorod, which was Russky all along and was ruled mostly by elected Rurikid knyazi.

So the arguments for Russia being the original Rus' are:
1) Unlike Ukraine and Belarus, it was ruled by the same Rurikid dynasty all along from IX to XVII century.
2) After the mongols, majority of Rus' people fled North to Zalesskaya zemlia - modern Russia.
3) The written language of Old Rus' is (arguably) closer to modern Russian that to Ukrainian.
4) The birthplace of Rus' - Veliki Novgorod was Russian all along.

But Ukraine and Belarus are of course Rus' successors too, just less politically significant ones. When we'll restore our East-Slavic unity, the capital of Russia should be moved to Kiev and country renamed Rus'

Hugely off-topic, but still.

 

[Squonk]

1) Unlike Ukraine and Belarus, it was ruled by the same Rurikid dynasty all along from IX to XVII century.

Rurikid dinasty didn't go extinct in Ukraine and Belarus. They just ceased to be direct political rulers. Lots of princes descending from Rurik (like princes Ostrogski) fought on polish-lithuanian side against Russia, sometimes leading the armies.

2) After the mongols, majority of Rus' people fled North to Zalesskaya zemlia - modern Russia.

I doubt it was in such a grand scale as you seem to indicate.

3) The written language of Old Rus' is (arguably) closer to modern Russian that to Ukrainian.

And Silesian dialect is closer to old-polish than other dialects. Precisely because it was peripheral.

4) The birthplace of Rus' - Veliki Novgorod was Russian all along.

Nowogród Wielki was a staunch enemy of Russia (Muscovy). It actually asked for polish protection against Russia before Russia conquered it, but our rulers were dumb enough to leave in in the lurch. Later in, Nowogród was almost completely destroyed by Muscovy. I hear that the literary language used in Nowogród was somewhat diferent from the one in Muscovy, also.

Btw, Smoleńsk should have been made Belarusian.


Ruthenia (Rus) Ruthenians (Rusini) are historical names, and today "Rusini" is used to describe Rusyns, that is Carpathian Ruthenians. But obviously both Rusyns, Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians are all descendants of Ruthenians.

 

[Veles]

Rurikid dinasty didn't go extinct in Ukraine and Belarus. They just ceased to be direct political rulers. Lots of princes descending from Rurik (like princes Ostrogski) fought on polish-lithuanian side against Russia, sometimes leading the armies.

But not as rulers. Few of them outlived Polish-Lithuanian rule and kept the faith of their fathers, for which they fought.

I doubt it was in such a grand scale as you seem to indicate.

So I read basically everywhere. Most of the nobilty and clergy of the Kievan area and Severian lands fled to Northern woodlands with all treasures.

Nowogród Wielki was a staunch enemy of Russia (Muscovy). It actually asked for polish protection against Russia before Russia conquered it, but our rulers were dumb enough to leave in in the lurch. Later in, Nowogród was almost completely destroyed by Muscovy. I hear that the literary language used in Nowogród was somewhat diferent from the one in Muscovy, also.

Enemy of Muscowy, not of Russia. It was a primary part of Russia after all, and if you read Novgorodian ballads, tales, chronicles and documents, it's clear that people felt themselves a part of Zemlia Russkaya. Frankly, I'd rather have Novgorod unite Russia than Moscow. And as for the language, Moscow dialect is based on Kievan, whereas Novgorodian dialect is considered by some linguists as a separate branch of East-Slavic language.

Btw, Smoleńsk should have been made Belarusian.

Yeah. And Belarus should have been made Russian.

Ruthenia (Rus) Ruthenians (Rusini) are historical names, and today "Rusini" is used to describe Rusyns, that is Carpathian Ruthenians. But obviously both Rusyns, Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians are all descendants of Ruthenians.

Rusin is an old name for "a Russian". Medieval Russians of Moscovia, Tver and other northern lands refered to themselves as Rusiny sometimes up to Petrine times.

 

[Yeekim]

Proper, fermented kvas is simply awesome.

Unfortunately, there are lots of carbonated abominations which taint the noble reputation of this great beverage.
EDIT: Also, pel´meni is one of the greatest culinary inventions in the history of mankind.

 

[mayor]

@Squonk: A bit of a personal question so feel free not to go into this.

Here in The Netherlands Poland is still seen as a country that is very intolarable against homosexuals.
I think this vision on Poland comes mainly because of the Polish government/parliament being very intolarable. Judging from the reactions of the MP's on a statement from the first (and only?) homosexual MP (forgot what it was exactly) I think it still is.

I was wondering how you experience it and how the "regular" Poles think about homosexuality in daily life?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Enemy of Muscowy, not of Russia. It was a primary part of Russia after all

And even the relationship between medieval Novgorod and Moscow were more complex then "staunch enemy".

Lots of princes descending from Rurik (like princes Ostrogski) fought on polish-lithuanian side against Russia, sometimes leading the armies.

That's true, and many families descended from Geniminas became Russian noble families (Golitzyn, Belsky, Volynsky, Kurakin). History's weird.

 

[Squonk]

@Squonk: A bit of a personal question so feel free not to go into this.

Here in The Netherlands Poland is still seen as a country that is very intolarable against homosexuals.
I think this vision on Poland comes mainly because of the Polish government/parliament being very intolarable. Judging from the reactions of the MP's on a statement from the first (and only?) homosexual MP (forgot what it was exactly) I think it still is.

I was wondering how you experience it and how the "regular" Poles think about homosexuality in daily life?

I think it's changing, changing rapidly.
In modern history, homosexuality was never a crime: the first polish laws established after regaining independance (after ww1), decriminalised homosexuality, which was a crime in Prussia, Austria and Russia, I think. But it was never something many spoke about and obviously people had problems. Only the 80's and 90's introduced this problem into attention. Mostly because of AIDS. Mikołaj Kozakiewicz (later on speaker of the parliament; allegedly he was of Tatar origin and nominally muslim, interesting thing, but he was veeery liberal for his times and for his party: he was in favour of legalising soft drugs etc) started defending gay rights and suggested creating gay organisation. But it had no consequences. However, several polish gay organisations were created, mostly to educate people to have safe sex etc.
In the 90's, "pedal", which is a slur for gay, was still commonly used as a slur against anyone. I was aware very early I was gay, which was a bad thing, actually. The anti-gay attitude of the society was strong to the point that as a kid I "defended" Freddie Mercury against claims he was gay, although I knew well I was myself.
I've had a lot of problems in school because of being well, somewhat effeminate (meaning I looked as a girl, I have very long eyelashes and stuff, and I was too calm for a boy and so on). I've had giant problems because of it, actually. But it was my case and probably my gayness was not the only factor, you know, but because it showed, and I was weak physically and psychically. But if the children at my holiday group chanted "chlopczyna (which is boy-girl"), and at another "Mary" after me, I know it was all because I was girly. But I was mostly concerned with when that hostility reached my own class at school, my best friends. Poland, at least my city, was no place for gay kids in the 90's.

But I think it's changing and it's already changed very much. Young people are extremly liberal when it comes to these affairs. People voting for Palikot's party (the one with gay and transsexual MPs) were mostly 18-30 or so. There are more or less openly gay teenagers, students and so on these days. I assure you: there was NO-ONE openly gay in the 90s or earlier on. No one. There were some important men in polish culture, but even them were keeping it dark etc and it was only mentioned some time after their death and so on. And we've had some openly gay celebrities and coming outs in the last several years.

And it also depends on the region. There are some very conservative regions and some liberal ones.

So I say: there's not one "polish" attitude towards gays. I think it's more diverse than in Netherlands. You've reached a new paradigm. Poland in the 90's and earlier was still using the old one, and nowdays it's shifting from one to another, and there are both very liberal people and very conservative ones.
I think most people are still conservative. Don't be misled by PO party. Some of its members are liberal (especially the ones who were nibbled out of SLD), but some are just as conservative as PiS, only more sane. It's amazing this party stays together. Mostly because of staying in power, probably. Actually, one of the arguments against PiS (conservatives) was that J. Kaczynski (its leader) is allegedly gay. After all, he is a celibataire who lives with his mother and a cat only, so he must be gay in his enemies' minds. And such thinking is homophobic, actually. PO will not risk any changes in the official attitude towards gays. But it will also not try to stop mental changes in the society that will once make these changes desired by most society. PSL is conservative morally. SLD's electorate is mostly conservative morally as well (just like communists were), but their politicians will officially support gay rights.

 

[mayor]

I think it's more diverse than in Netherlands. You've reached a new paradigm.

well, there still is a lot of diversity in The Netherlands concerning homosexuals and especially gay-marriage..
With the people I hang out with it isn't an issue at all, but if you look at the group my brother hangs out with, their are some serious homophobes there... And if you look at the bigger cities there is also a bit more animosity towards gays..
And we still have (conservative Christian) parties who are against gay marriage and one of these is against homosexuality in general..
There is currently a political discussion going about so called "refusing officials" government officials who refuse to marry gays...

but I agree that "we" do have reached a new paradigm that the majority doesn't see homosexuality as an issue.

 

[Veles]

...Also, pel´meni is one of the greatest culinary inventions in the history of mankind.

Yea, pretty much. And Poles call it pierogi. And they have the nerve to call us heathens after that

By the way, the word pel'men' is of Finnic origin and means "an ear of dough". You probably have some local variant of it.

 

[warpus]

Yea, pretty much. And Poles call it pierogi. And they have the nerve to call us heathens after that

By the way, the word pel'men' is of Finnic origin and means "an ear of dough". You probably have some local variant of it.

Most of the western world calls them pierogi (or perogi), IRC.

When we put pierogi into red barszcz (borsht) soup, we call them uszka (ears)