Ask A Protestant Christian II

[Ajidica]

a Haredi - is that the right one? - Jew would tell you it was 'obvious' that men should wear beards.

I think that is a Hasidic viewpoint.

 

[Flying Pig]

I honestly don't believe the Aztec priests thought what they were doing was right. At some point, they had to have doubt... they just chose to ignore it.

...seriously? At least that ends the argument.

Most of the 10 Commandments fall under "Do Unto Others", really.

If we ignore the bits about envy, monotheism, monogamy, taking Sundays off work... actually, most of them

 

[MagisterCultuum]

There is nothing in the 10 commandment about taking Sundays off. The Lord's Day is not the same thing as the Sabbath.

 

[timtofly]

True, but some of us get two days out of the deal. Personaly I would not trade that for working 6 days each week ever.

 

[kochman]

...seriously? At least that ends the argument.

Seriously. I don't think that people kill without some feeling, at some point, that it is wrong... If they do, they have already surrendered themselves to being wrong.

If we ignore the bits about envy, monotheism, monogamy, taking Sundays off work... actually, most of them

Envy, monogamy... doesn't that have something to do with do unto others? You wouldn't want your wife cheating on you, so you shouldn't cheat on her, right?
You don't want some cad wanting to chase your wife, so you shouldn't chase some other guy's wife, right?

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Seriously. I don't think that people kill without some feeling, at some point, that it is wrong... If they do, they have already surrendered themselves to being wrong.

There is no true right or true wrong, only things that we consider to be wrong. Our morals are shaped by culture, how we've been raised, our environment etc.. Judging by the popularity of the tradition of sacrificing people to their gods, I'd say that they didn't have a big problem with it. Maybe they didn't see it as a normal death or a normal murder, maybe they thought that it's perfectly fine to kill people to honour Quetzalcoatl. I don't see any reason why an Aztec priest would have 100% certainly thought that sacrificing their fellow men was wrong.

 

[kochman]

There is no true right or true wrong, only things that we consider to be wrong.

Bull crap.
That's the type of talk that leads to excusing terrible behavior.

There are absolute wrongs and rights, and if you don't have a moral compass that helps you know that, I feel sorry for you.

Anyhow, this is ask a Protestant... not debate your personal moral relavitism philosophy with a Protestant.

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[Arakhor]

It's hardly "let's watch another Protestant psychoanalyse members of ancient cultures" though.

 

[kochman]

It's hardly "let's watch another Protestant psychoanalyse members of ancient cultures" though.

Ummmm... my statements were in answers to questions from Flying Pig...
I didn't just start going off on a totally barbaric culture out of nowhere.

 

[Ajidica]

Protestants: Do you consider Arius wrong? Why or why not?
Protestants: Do you consider Cathars to be Christians?

 

[Arakhor]

Well, in the sense that one who follows Jesus and God is a Christian, then yes, the Cathars were Christians, albeit very alternative ones. Seeing as I'm not a Trinitarian and accept that Jesus was mortal, God is the divine Father and that the Christ is the connecting power, I don't consider Arius to be too far out of sync with my own religious education, no.

 

[timtofly]

Arius was wrong in that Jesus as God's Son was born twice. I do not think that this would "effect" his following of Christ unless he also rejected that Jesus' death was the atonement for sin.

I would say that the Carthers were also mislead, due to the fact that according to them there was no OT God and no atonement for sin. They lived a pious life, but more hindu or zorastor in doctrine.

I would say that one who follows the teachings of Jesus would also follow that Jesus was the Christ. God Himself the First Born among those who would be able to be born again, since Jesus was God Himelf the sacrificial Lamb. Now it seems that John the Apostle had the influence through Origen and Lucian, thus Arian was 4th, 5th? generation. John taught that Jesus was the logos/word. This Word is what spoke the known world into existence. I am curious if Arian would have been accused of "teaching" that the OT and NT were also the "embodiment" of the Word. This would really fly in the face of the triple footed stool of the RCC.

Now contrast this to Stephen as he was martyred who saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. John saw Jesus as that Lamb of God. If Jesus was referring to the Bible as the Flesh and Blood which Jesus said as often as you "do this" one is partaking of His flesh and Blood. That would also fly in the face of the RCC. If I was an investigative journalist at that time, I would be highly suspicious of what was going down at that time.

To me it does not matter if one is a "strict" trinitarian or not to be a Christian. I believe they need to acknowledge: The OT God created the known world. Promised Abraham would have an offspring who would undue the wrong of Adam. Accept that Jesus was the perfect Son of God born of Mary through the Holy Spirit. Gave up His life on the cross, descended into hell and led those OT believers from the clutches of death and claimed victory over the curse God pronounced on Adam when he chose to eat the forbidden fruit. Jesus was the first born begotten that allowed all those who came before and who will come after as Sons of God who has Faith in the calling that God provides through the Holy Spirit. Anything after this is an additive or legalism.

IMO the Church can be local can adhere to culture and does not have to demand works of any one. Heresy is when mankind dictates how to live ones life. Making disciples is not us doing the creating. God works from the inside out. A disciple is one who uses the teacher as a sounding board. The teacher knows and lives the Truth. The disciple learns by following. It is not an organization per se, nor a governing body. It is the living and breathing body of Christ who lives out the example Jesus gave while here on earth.

 

[Traitorfish]

Seriously. I don't think that people kill without some feeling, at some point, that it is wrong... If they do, they have already surrendered themselves to being wrong.

Why would it be wrong, in the Aztec conceptual framework? The sacrificial victims were all warriors who had fallen nobly in battle and were now being offered up to the sun god himself. What could be kinder than helping them fulfil this divinely-appointed destiny?

Envy, monogamy... doesn't that have something to do with do unto others? You wouldn't want your wife cheating on you, so you shouldn't cheat on her, right?
You don't want some cad wanting to chase your wife, so you shouldn't chase some other guy's wife, right?

There really is no connection at all between these two concepts.

a totally barbaric culture

"Total barbarians" don't usually institute a universal education system.

 

[Arakhor]

Why do you feel the need to believe in the sin of Adam to be a Christian, Timtofly?

 

[kochman]

Why would it be wrong, in the Aztec conceptual framework? The sacrificial victims were all warriors who had fallen nobly in battle and were now being offered up to the sun god himself. What could be kinder than helping them fulfil this divinely-appointed destiny?


There really is no connection at all between these two concepts.


"Total barbarians" don't usually institute a universal education system.

1) Because, you know inside it is wrong... if you don't, you know when you see the fear on a person's face you are violating the golden rule...

2) The connection was "do unto others", if you fail to see the connection that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

3) The Nazis had all sorts of "advanced things", I still consider them totally barbaric as well. Just my opinion. Aztecs = not good culture. A net loss for the human race.

 

[classical_hero]

Why do you feel the need to believe in the sin of Adam to be a Christian, Timtofly?

If Adam did not exist then Jesus died for no reason at all. It makes Christ's death a sadistic one since God punished an innocent man for no good reason.

 

[El_Machinae]

Seriously. I don't think that people kill without some feeling, at some point, that it is wrong... If they do, they have already surrendered themselves to being wrong.


Envy, monogamy... doesn't that have something to do with do unto others? You wouldn't want your wife cheating on you, so you shouldn't cheat on her, right?
You don't want some cad wanting to chase your wife, so you shouldn't chase some other guy's wife, right?

My original question was about how do you figure out which of the OT rules still had to be followed, but I think that I asked y'all to ignore the ones which are easily justified under some type of 'golden rule' scenario.

I mean, I know that some of the OT rules that fit the "Golden Rule" are still a good idea. But how about the ones that don't easily qualify one way or another?

Dom3k divided it into "moral" vs "cultural" (I think). And I think some people sometimes suggest that "those rules were just for the Jews". How do people tell? Other than by using secular morality, how do protestants pick which parts of the OT still apply? You picked the 10 commandments, but only part of them involve the application of the Golden Rule. Any why did you pick the 10 commandments and not others?

If Adam did not exist then Jesus died for no reason at all. It makes Christ's death a sadistic one since God punished an innocent man for no good reason.

Well, except that we're all sinners. If you're a sinner (and you are), and Jesus died for your sins, then Adam doesn't really matter.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

If Adam did not exist then Jesus died for no reason at all. It makes Christ's death a sadistic one since God punished an innocent man for no good reason.

...Job?

 

[timtofly]

John 9:28-41

Spoiler :

28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.

30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.

31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 12:42-50

Spoiler :

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Romans 1:1-6

Spoiler :

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Romans 2:10-29

Spoiler :

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 8:8-21

Spoiler :

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John established that Jesus was God in the Flesh, and that He was commanded to be the atonement that was required by God's need (disobedience requires judgment) to judge the world.

Paul continued in that Jesus obeyed the Will of God and was the one who would redeem the world. Adam brought sin into the world and Jesus would bring grace back into the world.

...Job?

Job was not punished. He was tested.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

...Job?

Satan brought all that upon Job.