Ask a Red III

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I read your further notes on what Marx thought with interest, but with all the intellectual rigorousness you display when doing so, you still manage to make a to me not very sensible maneuver which conveniently leads you to not actually argue an important gist of my post, that about the inconsistency

"He wants to show" - yes, but whatever and however he wants to show it, it will in the end have to take the form of a model. It doesn't matter if it is a comprehensive model, or a scientific model, or a model pulled out of his arse, it has to be a model. Because what is a model? It is nothing but a scenario created for the purpose of simulating versions of reality. And it is the only way we can even start to grasp reality, for actual reality is not something we can ever truly grasp in its wholeness. So weather Marx does a somersault, spits Lincoln Vampire Hunter in the face or is concerned with the "layers of appearance" of capitalism - as soon as he wants to say anything meaningful about capitalism he will do so based on a model.
Now you say that Marx was aware of the limitations of models. Well then it makes no sense for him to think to able to predict the destiny of capitalism.
I don't really know what point you're making here.

Yes, any attempt to describe a social process will involve a model, however open and provisional. I don't disagree. My contention is with the suggestion that Marxism hinges on the construction of a closed and comprehensive model, something which is absent from Marx's work. Only in Capital does he present a closed model, and it is a consciously non-comprehensive model adopted for methodological purposes.

No, Marx does not believe that he can "predict the destiny of capitalism", or at least not in any immediate sense. What he identifies is the existence of certain insurmountable tendencies within capitalism, and infers from these tendencies the inevitability of capitalist crisis. He doesn't claim any specific fate for capitalism, or even insist upon a very particular relationship between crisis and revolution, he merely describes the way in which the one provides the conditions for the other.


That is exactly what I think and I am afraid you misunderstood my portrayal of the French revolution or the Russian revolution. My point merely was exactly what you say, that ideas were a dimension of those processes. And that accordingly they were one necessary ingredient for those revolutions to lead where they did lead and proceed how they did proceed.
And assuming you agree with me here - where then is the logic in saying that an adherence to Communism wouldn't require rational schematics for they wouldn't precede history? It after all suffices for them to be one important dimension of history to matter.
But further on it not only matters in the sense of the future of humanity, but also regarding the individual choice to adhere to Communism. Because if we accept the inherent shortcomings of models, the reasoning that Communism had to replace Capitalism anyhow doesn't fly. Because it would constitute blind faith in whatever model predicts so. But given the willingness of Red's to apparently overlook this, there is no need at that point to further quarrel abut the model I suggested, because evidently models are accepted as powerful explanatory tools if a believe in the demise of our whole way to organize society is based on a model - which it has to if it wants to be based on anything at all other than the wish for it.. Or if on the other hand you want to reject models for history and that means reality is too complex, it can also not be concluded that Communism was some sort of natural conclusion and for the lack of "rational schematics" regarding its implementation has no leg to stand on.
Either way, it ends at a situation where without the suggestion of an actual alternative, adherence to Communism got nothing but faith.
Again, you present ideas in some Platonic sense, as things-in-themselves, which I totally reject. Ideas are relationships of meaning between subjects and their environment, of which the sort of grand, rational are merely complex abstractions. I do not begin with communism and set about realising it; I begin with the real world, and may draw together certain meanings of that world into a complex I then identify as "communism". Politic activity is not a matter of dreaming up some grandiose scheme and applying it to the world, not really, it's a matter of navigating a shifting sea of irreducibly complex actors and actions. A plan may at best provide some form of regulation, but the more general the plan becomes, the less effective this regulation, and by the time we're talking about something like reshaping a whole society, any notion of referring to blueprints is sheer fantasy.

I tend to identify with the tendency within Marxism broadly termed "autonomism", in which it is argued that revolution is (contra Lenin) not a matter of organising a revolutionary bloc and then staging a takeover, but of the struggle of the working class for practical autonomy from capital. This is a struggle that begins with, must begin with, our everyday lives. It is found in something as simple as workers trying to avoid the scrutiny of a supervisor, of taking extra time for their breaks, of attempt to obtain more time off to do what they want. Ultimately, the pursuit of this autonomy, the pursuit of humanity in inhuman conditions, leads to a confrontation with and rejection of capital, and above all with labour as a function of capital, and thus of labour itself. The worker becomes a communist not when he adopts this vision or those principles, but when he rejects his own existence as a worker. Communism is not a matter of pursuit, of driving towards some lofty set of goals: it is a matter of refusal, of refusing your present existence and of struggling to achieve a new one by whatever means you can. That isn't something that can be planned for, only some thing that can be done.

The ultra-guache theorist Gilles Dauvé once responded (I'm paraphrasing, but I hope closely) to a claim by some leftist group or other that "those who can imagine a better world can make communism" with the assertion that, on the contrary, those who can make communism can imagine a better world. That's about where I stand on the matter; the epistemic privilege of insight into a post-capitalist world can only be achieved by practice, by the activity of revolution itself, by actually making that world and witnessing what you make, and not simply by thinking about it. All we can achieve is utopias, and while that may not be without value, they are necessarily speculative, fragmented and hugely unreliable, which is very far from the sort of comprehensive outline you seem to expect.
 
I've heard Cheezy say (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is right) that he is sometimes pro- free market but always opposed to capitalism. Can you explain to me how you can have a free market without capitalism?

I know you can have the state run things capitalistically, which is technically a non-market form of capitalism (Like China.) But I don't see how you can have a free market with no capitalism. Can someone explain this to me?

I'll give you a hint: capitalism was more or less invented by the Italians in the late 1200s, and markets existed anytime two or more people wished to trade.

I'll give you another hint: I've defined capitalism in a few threads you've participated in and our friendly reds more or less endorsed the definition, so all you have to do is go read what people already wrote right in front of you ;)

A free market system is one in which the buyers and sellers are free to trade on their own accord.

Capitalism is a social system in which the mediation (don't glaze over this word if you don't know it's meaning, look it up) among individuals and groups is profit. There's no reason a free market system has to be embedded in a capitalist society. There's no reason to have a free market you have to have wage labor, private property beyond personal property, and ownership assigned via abstract monetary value.

Rome had a fairly free market and it was pretty damn far from capitalism. Most merchants, once they made enough money, bought land, slaves, and retired as farmers getting no richer. This is because status came from being a non-wealth seeking, anti-profit minded landed citizen, not from having more accumulated capital than the other guy.

Do you wish me to go on, and do you have any questions?
 
I've heard Cheezy say (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is right) that he is sometimes pro- free market but always opposed to capitalism. Can you explain to me how you can have a free market without capitalism?

I know you can have the state run things capitalistically, which is technically a non-market form of capitalism (Like China.) But I don't see how you can have a free market with no capitalism. Can someone explain this to me?

Hygro has done a great job, I just want to add a bit more clarification. A free market is a description of government's relation to business practices. The argument for a free market, aka those famous words laissez-faire, meant two things. One, it meant the elimination of trade barriers like tariffs and import/export duties, so that the economies of nations might trade on an equal footing, and the most efficient producer would triumph. Two, it meant the government "letting off" of economic influence. In the early modern period (aka, before the industrial revolution), it was common for the state to get involved in things like grain prices and the production of essential national economic goods like wood and gold. It was, thus, an argument against the controlling of prices via floors and ceilings, and the manipulation of "essential industries" by the state.*

You might think of states back then as being, with a few exceptions, monoculture economies. There was the stuff the country made for itself, which was of infinite variety, but there might only be one or two things that they actually traded elsewhere, and they were generally of the same few categories: precious metals, or the tools required to obtain precious metals (like mercury, which is essential for separating silver from its ore), unique regional foods like wine, olives, and spices, and basic materials like wood, hemp, and peat. Such "industries," if you could call them that, were essential to the financial stability of the state, who collected duties on such trade, and so royal courts and parliaments took a very active role in protecting the success of such industries, thence ariseth mercantilism.
 
1. What books/literature would you recommend to understand moderate socialism or communism?

2. Has there ever been an example of real communism? What do you think of experiments like the kibbutz?
 
I've heard Cheezy say (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is right) that he is sometimes pro- free market but always opposed to capitalism. Can you explain to me how you can have a free market without capitalism?

I know you can have the state run things capitalistically, which is technically a non-market form of capitalism (Like China.) But I don't see how you can have a free market with no capitalism. Can someone explain this to me?

I'm not sure if he uses the technical definition of capitalism or the original smear term from Karl Marx.
 
Be more specific.

Pers'nally, he was a tad cynical and was on the right track to some stuff. Some.
 
I'm not sure if he uses the technical definition of capitalism or the original smear term from Karl Marx.
Opinions to yourself, please. Preferably on a permanent basis.


Thoughts on Keynes?
Probably the most coherent attempt to rehabilitate liberal political economy, but not actually debunking Marx's critique so much as deflecting it, and that with only very limited success.


1. What books/literature would you recommend to understand moderate socialism or communism?
Do you mean literature that expounds a position of moderate socialism, or literature that critiques it?

2. Has there ever been an example of real communism?
Nope.

What do you think of experiments like the kibbutz?
Too heterogeneous to comment.
 
Shouldn't y'all be opposed to Keynes because he perpetuates the capitalist mode of production? The means of production remain in the hands of the capitalists, but they pay a small tax to avoid revolution, etc.
 
Shouldn't y'all be opposed to Keynes because he perpetuates the capitalist mode of production? The means of production remain in the hands of the capitalists, but they pay a small tax to avoid revolution, etc.

On the other hand it leads to people living better lives than they would have, and the point is mostly about peoples' well beings and freedom from necessity.
 
On the other hand it leads to people living better lives than they would have, and the point is mostly about peoples' well beings and freedom from necessity.

No, I think the Red's view is that Keynes will just delay the revolution and that the Kenyesian medicine is "just treating the symptons and not the causes of the sick capitalist system". Ergo, Keynes is an enemy of the working class.
 
I've heard Cheezy say (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is right) that he is sometimes pro- free market but always opposed to capitalism. Can you explain to me how you can have a free market without capitalism?

I know you can have the state run things capitalistically, which is technically a non-market form of capitalism (Like China.) But I don't see how you can have a free market with no capitalism. Can someone explain this to me?

Free market anti-capitalists usually oppose profits. Instead, they want to have any surplus to be redistributed among the workers, who - in their view ideally - manage and own businesses co-operatively.
 
I'll give you a hint: capitalism was more or less invented by the Italians in the late 1200s, and markets existed anytime two or more people wished to trade.

I'll give you another hint: I've defined capitalism in a few threads you've participated in and our friendly reds more or less endorsed the definition, so all you have to do is go read what people already wrote right in front of you ;)

A free market system is one in which the buyers and sellers are free to trade on their own accord.

Capitalism is a social system in which the mediation (don't glaze over this word if you don't know it's meaning, look it up) among individuals and groups is profit. There's no reason a free market system has to be embedded in a capitalist society. There's no reason to have a free market you have to have wage labor, private property beyond personal property, and ownership assigned via abstract monetary value.

Rome had a fairly free market and it was pretty damn far from capitalism. Most merchants, once they made enough money, bought land, slaves, and retired as farmers getting no richer. This is because status came from being a non-wealth seeking, anti-profit minded landed citizen, not from having more accumulated capital than the other guy.

Do you wish me to go on, and do you have any questions?

I don't think I understood this fully. (And I looked up mediation!)
You seem to say that capitalism is defined by the want for profit itself, instead of profit to achieve some other goal (buying a farm and living the good life). But that seems troublesome, since it depends on the intent of the actors involved. I think it is hard to figure out what the intent of people is, which would mean that it is very hard to say if something is capitalistic. If you were stranded on some island and observed the daily trades of the inhabitants for a while, you wouldn't be able to figure out if they were capitalistic, would you? Sure, you could see that some of them were making a profit, but you wouldn't know if they intended to buy a farm and retire like any good Roman citizen would do, or if they wanted to hoard it like a capitalistic pig.
 
On the other hand it leads to people living better lives than they would have, and the point is mostly about peoples' well beings and freedom from necessity.

Unless you're satisfied with the Keynesian status quo I'm not sure why you think that matters if you're really a Marxist, though! "Heighten the contradictions."
 
No, I think the Red's view is that Keynes will just delay the revolution and that the Kenyesian medicine is "just treating the symptons and not the causes of the sick capitalist system". Ergo, Keynes is an enemy of the working class.
Not always, but often. I agree that this is a common criticism of Keynes from the left. Keynes was a conservative as he was progressive. He was definitely a capitalist and a member of the elite, serving the elite.

Free market anti-capitalists usually oppose profits. Instead, they want to have any surplus to be redistributed among the workers, who - in their view ideally - manage and own businesses co-operatively.
Or distribute surplus to consumers, which I think is a more common ideology of that title.

I don't think I understood this fully. (And I looked up mediation!)
You seem to say that capitalism is defined by the want for profit itself, instead of profit to achieve some other goal (buying a farm and living the good life). But that seems troublesome, since it depends on the intent of the actors involved. I think it is hard to figure out what the intent of people is, which would mean that it is very hard to say if something is capitalistic. If you were stranded on some island and observed the daily trades of the inhabitants for a while, you wouldn't be able to figure out if they were capitalistic, would you? Sure, you could see that some of them were making a profit, but you wouldn't know if they intended to buy a farm and retire like any good Roman citizen would do, or if they wanted to hoard it like a capitalistic pig.
:D That's what's up getting, on the mediation train. I like your question, too.

It actually is to an extent profit to an ends, an ends to social power and status that is defined by perpetually increasing profit and a race to profit. That's the big difference is that in previous systems, profit reached an end point of subsistence or conquest that took over once enough wealth was achieved. The Romans had, one could argue coming from my discipline (cue the board's historians to argue) a system that resembled capitalism in the way it needed ever ending, self-destroying growth. Only their growth was based not on production to money, but conquest to land. I know you question the ability to observe

If I was stranded on some island, I think I could recognize almost immediately of a society was capitalist. Are they trading and producing for profit to define who has top status in society, such that wealth and profit and markets have primacy over other forms of social mediation? I think you could see this pretty quickly. It's tough to have capitalism without political competition, broad trade, financial systems, and advanced production like post medieval (from a European standpoint) economies (workshops, monopoly, market centers, *machines*, "abstract labor time"). You'd see pretty fast if a culture fit into that paradigm, even if it was in a gray area.

Unless you're satisfied with the Keynesian status quo I'm not sure why you think that matters if you're really a Marxist, though! "Heighten the contradictions."
Marxists et al are not a homogenous group. And many can enjoy that the practice of Keynes's prescriptions largely proved their point that a bottom up, demand based de-accumulation lead to stronger economies and healthier people.

But yes, Keynes did strengthen the capitalist world system by a good deal.
 
:D That's what's up getting, on the mediation train. I like your question, too.

It actually is to an extent profit to an ends, an ends to social power and status that is defined by perpetually increasing profit and a race to profit. That's the big difference is that in previous systems, profit reached an end point of subsistence or conquest that took over once enough wealth was achieved. The Romans had, one could argue coming from my discipline (cue the board's historians to argue) a system that resembled capitalism in the way it needed ever ending, self-destroying growth. Only their growth was based not on production to money, but conquest to land. I know you question the ability to observe

If I was stranded on some island, I think I could recognize almost immediately of a society was capitalist. Are they trading and producing for profit to define who has top status in society, such that wealth and profit and markets have primacy over other forms of social mediation? I think you could see this pretty quickly. It's tough to have capitalism without political competition, broad trade, financial systems, and advanced production like post medieval (from a European standpoint) economies (workshops, monopoly, market centers, *machines*, "abstract labor time"). You'd see pretty fast if a culture fit into that paradigm, even if it was in a gray area.

I'm still not entirely sure I follow.

You say that in a capitalistic society, people are judged by their wealth? I assume people think our current system is capitalistic. But status today isn't really determined just by wealth, but also by (depending on which circles you live in) your Hirsch index, how often your face appears on MTV or your ability to kick an inflated piece of fake leather. Bernard Arnault doesn't really seem #4 in status worldwide, and we don't love downtown because of bank account.
Today most people retire at some point, instead of working and earning until they die, which suggests they have bigger motives than money for money's sake.
 
Marxists et al are not a homogenous group. And many can enjoy that the practice of Keynes's prescriptions largely proved their point that a bottom up, demand based de-accumulation lead to stronger economies and healthier people.

But yes, Keynes did strengthen the capitalist world system by a good deal.

No one is suggesting that Marxists are a homogenous group, merely that they all share a common belief, that being Marxism.
 
Shouldn't y'all be opposed to Keynes because he perpetuates the capitalist mode of production? The means of production remain in the hands of the capitalists, but they pay a small tax to avoid revolution, etc.

In the larger sense, yes. But as someone noted above, Keynesianism provides a symptomatic treatment for capitalism, which helps to minimize the effects which create the most enmity towards the system. On the one hand, his recommendations, and the practices of those who follow his understanding of economics, do much to help people. That much is beyond argumentation. On the other hand, they give the system a facade. So while I cannot entirely condemn the doing of good - these are still people we're dealing with here, who have lives and needs regardless of who's "winning" politically, I don't really like it too much because of its ability to mask the true nature of the system. Think of it in the same sense that I would rather we treat the source of diseases than the symptoms of a disease, but I don't want people presently suffering from the disease to lose help that could ease their suffering just so that we can emphasize the need for preventative medicine.

EDIT: All that said, I also have to wonder if we really think that the transition to socialism will create an escape from business cycles. We attribute them to capitalist greed and overproduction, but communism is supposed to hinge upon abundance, and our social interactions still take place in a "market" of sorts, so Keynes' observations about mitigating business cycles may still prove useful for quite a while.
 
By "someone" you mean me. That's who he's responding to ;)


dutchfire, I hear what you are saying. As humans we aren't insectoid mind slaves to our dominating system but it still all ties back to the central social-regulation of accumulating profit. It's the driving agent of our lifestyles, our politics, even our metaphors. Think of how many phrases, especially in English, that are non-literal statements that use money-maximizing logic. Consider what lifestyles and behaviors we consider logical. Your country is a lot less extreme about this stuff than mine, even though you guys damn near started modern capitalism, so it might not play out as much there, but I'm certain it's still very present.
 
On Keynes: I think that we're hanging far too much off Keynesian theory as a condition for the post-war economy. From a Marxist point of view, the post-war settlement is the product of the class struggle of the interwar period, which emerged as a matter of necessary rather than because it was a good idea. We see prefiguration of it before 1945, particularly during the Second World War, and also parallels of it in the Soviet bloc. I don't want to just say "it would have happened anyway", as if state policies were just a lot of tinsel, but Keynesianism didn't erupt iceberg-like out of the fog to sink the H.M.S. Impending Revolution, it was the product of the same historical processes that would in a different history have found our ship docking safely at Port Communism.

What I'd hazard is that the true contribution of Keynes wasn't to produce a cross-class consensus, which never really existed anyway, but to produce a consensus within the ruling class- and as the collapse of that consensus in the late 1970s shows, it was one premised on a very specific set of historical circumstances, and not just on the inherent virtues of Keynesian theory.

No one is suggesting that Marxists are a homogenous group, merely that they all share a common belief, that being Marxism.
What's the content of this alleged "common belief"? When we talk about a "common belief" among Muslims, we'd mean something like the assertion that Allah is the only god, and Muhammad is his prophet, but it's not obvious that there's any analogical dogma for Marxists.
 
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