Ask a Red III

[Cheezy the Wiz]

If we were all small business owners, then capitalism would cease to exist.

 

[Takhisis]

We wouldn't have an agricultural production if we were all store owners.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Well that's what the upper class is for. The Prince of Wales has plenty of land out in Cornwall, he just has to farm it.

 

[timtofly]

It is not that hard for him to do, and I am sure there are others who would help him distribute his produce.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Can wage-labor not be counted to the middle class?

I don't entirely understand your question here, but I think you're asking whether or not the Middle Class' salaries constitute wage labor. For those who are not business owners, they of course do. The problem with "middle class" is that it denotes a wage category, not a social one dictated by productive relations. Some people who are considered "middle class" are capitalists, small business owners. Others are civil servants, clerks, or other functionaries with less easily replaceable skills, the keeping around of whom necessitates higher wages. Unless they own productive materials and utilize them to produce commodities, they are not capitalists, and thus wage-earners; well-paid members of the working class.

 

[Lone Wolf]

So, is a self-employed plumber a worker or a member of the petty bourgeoisie?

 

[ParkCungHee]

That would be pretty classic petite bourgeoisie.

While we're on class divisions, do you feel Marx was right in his views about the Lumpenproletariat?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Oooh do me next. I manage a car dealership and hire and fire. I receive wages but the greater share of my income is a percentage of profits though I hold no stake in the company.I consider myself working class through and through but I'm betting you guys don't.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Do you own the cars you sell? Because you sound (relatively) high paid working class.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

No I definitely don't own them. Funny thing is, neither does the company. They just sit on floor plan accruing interest and when the customer pays for the car, the dealership pays out the financier. Not a bad gig for the owner.

But yeah, no risk is taken by me and I can't lose money. But if we don't make money then I get diddly squat.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Definitely working class then. You don't have anything of productive value except your labor.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Ain't that the truth comrade

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That would be pretty classic petite bourgeoisie.

Incidentally, the self-employed, who employ no one else, also represent a socialist potentiality: they are also workers in control of their means of production. Rather like the family farm, my favorite example of this concept.

While we're on class divisions, do you feel Marx was right in his views about the Lumpenproletariat?

Mostly, yes. I like how he drew a comparison between them, rentiers, and finance capitalists in Eighteenth Brumaire. Very telling, I think. What I wonder is, though, by his definition (if you ignore the loaded word "disreputable"), are civil servants not also included in this class? They have little to no dependency on the production process, and subsist off of the present social relations (namely, the capitalist class pays them to run crap for them). I would need someone more skilled than I to explain the difference. I certainly don't wish to slander civil servants, perhaps they form their own separate category?

 

[ParkCungHee]

If you agree with Marx's view that the lumpenproletariat lacks revolutionary potential are you worried about it expanding? Because its certainly looking like thats the way most developed economies are heading.

As for your question of civil servants I think it depends for the most part on the kind of civil servant you mean. Certainly many of them are involved in the productive processes, managing public resources, enforcing safety standards. Certainly, your claim that they are essentially paid by the capitalist class to manage things is correct, so I have to wonder what appreciable difference there is between a civil servant working on social security and an accountant working in corporate payroll.

Apologies for any problems with this post, I am on a cell phone.

 

[plarq]

I'm not sure about relations between Marxist socialism and non-Marxist socialism.

 

[AvalancheMaster]

With all respect to your political views, I ask you as somebody who is becoming more and more libertarian lately.

What social privileges you deem acceptable, and are there any social systems you find not acceptable? That is, would you support Obamacare (I'm sure they've asked you before), and health care in general? I suppose you'd say "yes" to healthcare, but I are there any restrictions you'd put to it? Would it cover abortion? Lung cancer treatment for smokers?

Do you support work-class syndicates, which's members get benefits as labourers? I am asking this as a citizen of a country where being a syndicate member gets you 5 more days paid leave.

Also, what is your view on bureaucracy? Do you think that social systems could exist without it? How would you review the idea of a privately owned social systems, or social systems ran by non-government structures? Private schools? Co-operative pension funds?

I know that my questions are a bit attacking, but I don't want to start the flame war (or any kind of war). I've just wondered how a red views those ideas.

Peace.

 

[Mouthwash]

I realize how many times this question must have been asked, but are you a classical Marxist or something else?

 

[Takhisis]

Who are you asking that of?

 

[sophie]

Who are you asking that of?

Everyone ever.

 

[Takhisis]

Then answer, smartypants.