Ask a Red, Second Edition

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Amazing, isn't it, when people are honest? We can't predict the future. We can't anticipate everything about a system that's never been tried before.

If you don't like the way the thread is run, go start your own thread and compete with ours, where you can blow blood vessels at the thought of social responsibility.

At least you cannot fault a red for trying not to endorse a free market, even though he knows it won't work.:goodjob:
 
Can a dictator express the will of the working class, and thus, be productive, and possibly, even necessary, during the transistory stages to Communism?
 
Honestly, this thread isn't living up to its red diamond status. Legitimate questions are answered simply with that it will be different under communism. Why? I've got the answer: communism can't answer these questions.
Now you're just applying ridiculous standards. It's obvious you aren't willing to be convinced in the first place, but communism has certainly provided more than "we'll make things different" and you know that perfectly well.
 
I dunno, maybe? I'm not really interested in trying that out.
So, socialism (as a transitory stage) and dictatorship are not contradictory per se?
 
Honestly, this thread isn't living up to its red diamond status. Legitimate questions are answered simply with that it will be different under communism. Why? I've got the answer: communism can't answer these questions.

Plenty of good discussion here, but you don't understand them :(

I quote Murray Rothbard:

"The concept of 'voluntary slavery' is indeed a contradictory one, for so long as a laborer remains totally subservient to his master's will voluntarily, he is not yet a slave since his submission is voluntary; whereas, if he later changed his mind and the master enforced his slavery by violence, the slavery would not then be voluntary."

That just shows that neither you nor him understand more than a simplistic conception of power.

amadeus said:
With that, I'm leaving this thread. My questions are not being answered to any satisfactory degree.

:lol: Suit yourself. What else did anyone expect you'd say? That's why I never really bothered trying to convince anyone here - a little knowledge is a stubborn thing. I simply answer questions about theory posed by anyone who has an intellectual curiosity. It's a much better bet to take the fight to the larger stage and debate not the merits of Communism, but whatever social issues are at hand from a Marxist perspective.
 
Let me posit the question in a more reasonable manner:

Why is the exchange of labour for wages an inherently inequitable and exploitative one?
 
Let's test this "freedom" of yours: I apply for a job at an apple orchard for a part-time summer job for some pocket money. I agree to pick apples for $3/hr to undercut potential competitors applying for the same job. What happens under your system? I assume you would use the law to stop either myself or the employer and if one/both of us refused, you would use force to stop us. Who then is free? Despite that I'm of legal age, I'm not free to make my own decisions.

Let's test your "freedom" then. I apply for a job doing either of the following:

  • Prostitution, selling my body for money
  • Growing drugs, that I will then sell to children
  • As a hitman, assassinating whoever I am told to
  • And so on...
..And then present the same issues as you have. I'm not free to make my own decisions.

But wait a minute, what a massive strawman I have just presented. Indeed I did, but merely to point out the moral of the story.

To a red, selling yourself for $3/hour to the orchard just to have some pocket change (that you'd presumably want to buy things and make your life better) is just as* morally abhorrent as any of the ideas I presented. (* - slight hyperbole, but to make a point)

This is before even addressing the issues of "competition" and "pocket change" concepts you introduced into your example, despite their presence making no sense in a communistic context.

[Apologies in advance for addressing a question to reds without OP-sanctioned approval]
 
Let me posit the question in a more reasonable manner:

Why is the exchange of labour for wages an inherently inequitable and exploitative one?

I doubt many think that it's "inherently" inequitable and exploitative, only that that it is inequitable and exploitative under certain conditions, such as the private ownership of the means of production by a capitalist class, which allows them to extract profit from the workers' labour.

My own view is actually closer to what you're saying, because I don't think it's possible never to be exploited in some way, no matter the system. So I think exploitation (of course, this is to stretch the term beyond the Marxist conception) is a universal feature of the relations of production, not that it's inherent to something. The thing is to mitigate its effects and implications such that everyone can lead fulfilling lives with dignity.
 
Final point to Amadeus:

I quote Murray Rothbard:

"The concept of 'voluntary slavery' is indeed a contradictory one, for so long as a laborer remains totally subservient to his master's will voluntarily, he is not yet a slave since his submission is voluntary; whereas, if he later changed his mind and the master enforced his slavery by violence, the slavery would not then be voluntary."

I disagree. If the options are:

  • Sell your labour to us at a price (wage) that we deem fit, which may be exploitative and unfair
  • Have nowhere to sell your labour and be unable to purchase basic amenities
...I hope you would agree that it would definitely be a kind of slavery. Where "we" represents the capitalist system and corporations as a whole, where the free market has failed to provide equitable wages to workers. Look at China. Are those people really almost-worthless??

I'm certain you would believe that (as an example) being abducted while you're sleeping, taken to the middle of nowhere, and told to work for food, would be slavery. Even if you're free to leave whenever you want, and nobody is applying any violence... except the fact that you're in the middle of a desert and you'll never survive going anywhere else.

I doubt many think that it's "inherently" inequitable and exploitative, only that that it is inequitable and exploitative under certain conditions, such as the private ownership of the means of production by a capitalist class, which allows them to extract profit from the workers' labour.

You do realize that workers can also extract profit from corporations. When the corporation is making profit, then it is considered that this profit has been extracted from workers' labour, and then distributed to the capitalists (owners). But then why is it not considered that a corporation making a loss, would have profit extracted from its workers? That is, the workers are extracting more money out of the corporation (via salary and wages) than it is truly worth.

I know the latter doesn't happen too frequently, and misses a few points when taken in context, but I wish to build the idea that workers aren't necessarily exploited or enslaved, because they are given equitable wages. Equitable because that's how the free market works (or close to).
 
I want to ask a personal question here. How do friends and family react when you explain your political views? All the communists/socialists I know are hardly taken seriously (by either Democrats or Republicans) in real life political discussion since they are such a small minority.
 
You do realize that workers can also extract profit from corporations. When the corporation is making profit, then it is considered that this profit has been extracted from workers' labour, and then distributed to the capitalists (owners). But then why is it not considered that a corporation making a loss, would have profit extracted from its workers? That is, the workers are extracting more money out of the corporation (via salary and wages) than it is truly worth.

That's because you're measuring 'worth' by income generated for the business. That's not how Marxists see it. If a business were to sell a product at a price below the marginal cost of labour, then you might have a point, but no business would do that except maybe for purposes of undercutting competition and monopolising the market.

Defiant47 said:
I know the latter doesn't happen too frequently, and misses a few points when taken in context, but I wish to build the idea that workers aren't necessarily exploited or enslaved, because they are given equitable wages. Equitable because that's how the free market works (or close to).

I don't know what "equitable" means here. But a sophisticated Marxist response to the argument that wages are simply set by demand and supply in the labour market, I'd say, is that the market is not a 'neutral' and inhuman thing. The market partly consists of employers as buyers who have considerable capacity to set prices (i.e. wages), and very often it's the case that workers are simply price takers (in fact, I recall reading something by an economist that says workers are never price setters except in very rare cases). This leads to the possibility of exploitation, especially where employers collude with the authorities to depress wages or to deliberately keep working conditions sub-par, such as by preventing collective bargaining.

This leads us to the sub-field of political economy. Interesting stuff.
 
I want to ask a personal question here. How do friends and family react when you explain your political views? All the communists/socialists I know are hardly taken seriously (by either Democrats or Republicans) in real life political discussion since they are such a small minority.

My family are big proponents of communism, seeing as they lived through the golden age that was Communist Romania, so they know first-hand of the benefits to such a system (even if that wasn't true communism, the idea and attempt was similar). They frequently call our capitalist system "sick", pointing out the various flaws and inequities.

Probably because I live in Canada, my friends tend to be more accepting of views that don't mesh with their political beliefs. Not that we talk about it often, but when we do, everyone respects each other. Maybe I just have good friends.
 
Let me posit the question in a more reasonable manner:

Why is the exchange of labour for wages an inherently inequitable and exploitative one?
It's really simple. Say you as a worker produce 10 units of iron worth $300. The company needs to make a profit so they can't pay you the full $300, and instead pay you a lower wage(the lowest wage they can get away with). The difference between the 300 and what you actually received was surplus value that your company extracted from you. Hence, exploitation.

I want to ask a personal question here. How do friends and family react when you explain your political views? All the communists/socialists I know are hardly taken seriously (by either Democrats or Republicans) in real life political discussion since they are such a small minority.
My parents find it interesting.
 
That's because you're measuring 'worth' by income generated for the business. That's not how Marxists see it. If a business were to sell a product at a price below the marginal cost of labour, then you might have a point, but no business would do that except maybe for purposes of undercutting competition and monopolising the market.

A business also has other costs. In general, a business's aim is not just to "make a profit", but to make a specific amount of return on investment based on the riskiness of the firm. Naturally, doing better is really good, but on average, this is what businesses will achieve.

That is, business will sell a product at a price above marginal cost of labour in order to make a profit despite all the other costs, and will set the price to make sufficient profit in order to properly compensate stockholders. It's little different from having to pay interest on your debts, but in this case it's generating sufficient return for your stockholders.

Is it fair that these stockholders receive such a (usually) higher return? Yes, because they engage in a riskier venture than simple debt-holding.

I don't know what "equitable" means here. But a sophisticated Marxist response to the argument that wages are simply set by demand and supply in the labour market, I imagine, is that the market is not a 'neutral' and inhuman thing. The market partly consists of employers as buyers who have considerable capacity to set prices (i.e. wages), and very often it's the case that workers are simply price takers (in fact, I recall reading something by an economist that says workers are never price setters except it very rare cases). This leads to the possibility of exploitation, especially where employers collude with the authorities to depress wages or to deliberately keep working conditions sub-par, such as by preventing collective bargaining.

Perhaps buyers have a considerable capacity to set prices, but that's still not an issue. If I'm selling oranges, maybe I'm at a very disadvantaged position and can't set any prices. Their real worth is $1 per orange. A buyer may come by and offer me 50 cents an orange, and I'd be inclined to accept.

But if the oranges were truly worth $1 each, then someone else could then come in and offer me 75 cents per orange instead, and take all of the extra profit for themselves. And why wouldn't they? Why would they let 50 cents of profit go to someone else, when they could get 25 cents of profit for themselves.

The same works with wages and the market. Unless you posit a monopoly or cartel situation, which is not legal due to anti-trust laws, the market will find a fair and equitable wage for each person, or at least close to. The market may be "inhuman", but I daresay it's more effective at determining fair wages than any human that may try.
 
It's really simple. Say you as a worker produce 10 units of iron worth $300. The company needs to make a profit so they can't pay you the full $300, and instead pay you a lower wage(the lowest wage they can get away with). The difference between the 300 and what you actually received was surplus value that your company extracted from you. Hence, exploitation.

The company has other costs. Variable costs of the iron. Fixed costs of administration. Interest cost for debt-holders.

Return on investment for shareholders. The company needs to make a profit for its shareholders that is in line with its riskiness. Nobody will invest in it if there isn't a fair return on value.

The worker is free to make this investment himself, and draw all of that profit - but he will also inherit all of the risk. The way he is, he's going with the safest route, and the comfiest living.

(And I've addressed the "lowest wage they can get away with" in my reply to Aelf)
 
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