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I wouldn't place limits on God's age that show a very long but mortal lifespan, especially one far younger than the age of the universe God supposedly created.
What would lead you to assume He's mortal in the first place?

After reading this exchange between Daniel Dennett and Richard Swinburne and this forum post by an eccentric Romanian, I've become intrigued by the idea of testing religion empirically. How much history does this idea have and what are the basic arguments for and against it?
 
After reading this exchange between Daniel Dennett and Richard Swinburne and this forum post by an eccentric Romanian, I've become intrigued by the idea of testing religion empirically. How much history does this idea have and what are the basic arguments for and against it?

That depends on what you mean by "testing religion". If you mean simply examining religion as a natural or social phenomenon, that's a well established branch of sociology or anthropology. It seemed to me that that was what Dennett was talking about, but Swinburne was questioning the assumption that religion is a purely natural or social phenomenon in the first place and insisting that one had to begin by considering whether the claims of religion are true - which is a quite different sort of enterprise. Your eccentric Romanian seemed to be thinking of empirical tests between religions to determine which one is true, on the assumption that one of them is, which is a rather different thing again.

Obviously Swinburne's sort of approach has a long history. I would say that the Romanian's probably does too, at least implicitly. When modern science first developed most people took it for granted that religious and physical facts were on a sort of continuum without a clear demarcation between them. Those who thought otherwise, such as the Jansenists, did so for religious reasons rather than philosophical or scientific ones. However, I don't think that people conducted experiments to test religious claims, or if they did I don't know about them.

They did so later, though. In the late nineteenth century, when spiritualism became fashionable, there was a strong trend of trying to measure and analyse psychic or other supernatural claims in a scientific fashion. The Society for Psychical Research was the most famous example of this. And I suppose the most notorious example of experiments done at this time was Duncan MacDougall, who conducted a whole series of experiments in the early twentieth century to work out the mass of the soul, by weighing people and animals on the point of death. He claimed to have proved that the soul exists and has mass, but the experiments were obviously pretty daft and have never been replicated.

More recently, the Templeton Foundation and its associated bodies have funded attempts to analyse "spiritual" phenomena scientifically, taking "spiritual" here in a wide sense to include moral phenomena as well as religious ones. They did a high-profile series of studies of forgiveness and its effect on society a few years ago, for example, and have also funded research into whether prayer has discernible effects. (It doesn't, at least not directly.) However, I think this kind of thing is very much a minority interest activity.

As for the arguments for and against this kind of thing, they're fairly straightforward, I think. The argument in favour of making such attempts is that (a) religious claims might be true and they might be false, and (b) if they are true they should have some discernible and even measurable effect on the world. The argument against is to deny either of these.
 
What would lead you to assume He's mortal in the first place?

Because the Bible says a day to God is like a 1000 years to man... That is not "immortality", that is a limit placed on God's existence. And further more, Genesis "suggests" God had a plant or something that extends life. God would not need a "tree of life" if God was truly eternal and predated this planet much less the universe...
 
That sounds like massive over-reading of a Bronze Age myth to me.
 
Because the Bible says a day to God is like a 1000 years to man... That is not "immortality", that is a limit placed on God's existence.
Intrinsically, it's neither. It just means that God's perception of time is somehow fundamentally different from ours. The same verse also says that 1000 years is like a day.
And further more, Genesis "suggests" God had a plant or something that extends life. God would not need a "tree of life" if God was truly eternal and predated this planet much less the universe...
I can't recall any reference to God ever personally eating from the Tree of Life. The typical interpretation of Adam and Eve being cut off from it is that now that they're fallen, immortality is off limits to them. Christian commentators often see it as a type of the Holy Cross. Also, what Arakhor said.
 
That sounds like massive over-reading of a Bronze Age myth to me.
Berzerker has become a little notorious for his extremely heterodox readings, so I wouldn't count this as particularly out of the ordinary for him.
 
Because the Bible says a day to God is like a 1000 years to man... That is not "immortality", that is a limit placed on God's existence. And further more, Genesis "suggests" God had a plant or something that extends life. God would not need a "tree of life" if God was truly eternal and predated this planet much less the universe...

I think that is what you say the bible says it is. It was comparing how a human views time in relation to God. It never states that God is bound by a day and that day is 1000 years to a human.

It does state that a day could equal a thousand years and a thousand years could equal a day. It seems that a human day could also equal a thousand years to God.

Of course one is free to take the other approach and turn the tables and describe God as bound by time, but that is not the logic involved in why this verse appears in context of the passage.

The context of the passage is that sometimes God sits back and waits for human time to pass and sometimes He is involved with humanity directly. Coming in and out of human reality is not an immortal god of religion. It is more an eternal God of creation.
 
This seems like the best place to ask, because I believe you have training as a philosopher as well.
When Bertrand Russell says "Nietzsche was primarily a literary, rather than academic, philosopher" is he just being petty or does he have a point?
 
Is Universal Reconciliation really as modern a concept at Wikipedia makes it out to be, that is, non-existent until the 19th century
 
This seems like the best place to ask, because I believe you have training as a philosopher as well.
When Bertrand Russell says "Nietzsche was primarily a literary, rather than academic, philosopher" is he just being petty or does he have a point?

Russell is generally rather petty throughout his History of Western Philosophy, though that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have a point. But I would say that that book is staggeringly outdated and very misleading in many respects, even on those where Russell was a true expert, such as Leibniz.

On Nietzsche, it really depends on what Russell means. Obviously Nietzsche was not a professional academic and did not have a university position, so it's true to say he wasn't academic in that sense - but that's no criticism, since the same thing could be said of any number of other major philosophers, including Descartes, Leibniz, Hume, and so on. Presumably Russell is commenting on Nietzsche's style, and there he surely does have a point, since Nietzsche doesn't write like an analytic philosopher but uses narrative, suggestion, rhetoric, and other literary devices. In fact he's an archetypal continental philosopher, at least in that regard. Of course there's always been much disagreement over how to interpret Nietzsche, and in particular whether he can be "made into" a canonical analytic-type philosopher - whether one can extract definite positions and arguments from his works, which could then be taught academically in the same way as those of other philosophers, or whether such an enterprise involves completely misunderstanding what he's doing. But I don't know nearly enough about Nietzsche to give a view on that.

Is Universal Reconciliation really as modern a concept at Wikipedia makes it out to be, that is, non-existent until the 19th century

I'm puzzled by this question as the Wikipedia article on Universal Reconciliation doesn't say that at all, and lists some (though not all) of the familiar early univeralists - although it does omit a lot and contain some errors (e.g. Origen himself was not condemned by the second council of Constantinople, and Julian of Norwich was certainly not a universalist although she was attracted to the position). But the overall story it tells is accurate enough: universalism was, as far as one can tell, a minority but viable view in the early church up to around the late fourth century, but it became far less common after that time, in large part due to the influence of Augustine, and was condemned. It re-emerged in early modern times, associated with the rise of latitudinarianism, deism, and related movements, and became much more popular in the nineteenth century. Today I'd say it's the default position among most academic theologians, but is still a minority view among Christians as a whole.
 
Russell is generally rather petty throughout his History of Western Philosophy, though that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have a point. But I would say that that book is staggeringly outdated and very misleading in many respects, even on those where Russell was a true expert, such as Leibniz.

On Nietzsche, it really depends on what Russell means. Obviously Nietzsche was not a professional academic and did not have a university position, so it's true to say he wasn't academic in that sense - but that's no criticism, since the same thing could be said of any number of other major philosophers, including Descartes, Leibniz, Hume, and so on. Presumably Russell is commenting on Nietzsche's style, and there he surely does have a point, since Nietzsche doesn't write like an analytic philosopher but uses narrative, suggestion, rhetoric, and other literary devices. In fact he's an archetypal continental philosopher, at least in that regard. Of course there's always been much disagreement over how to interpret Nietzsche, and in particular whether he can be "made into" a canonical analytic-type philosopher - whether one can extract definite positions and arguments from his works, which could then be taught academically in the same way as those of other philosophers, or whether such an enterprise involves completely misunderstanding what he's doing. But I don't know nearly enough about Nietzsche to give a view on that.

Thank you! I loved Russell's history of philosophy, warts and all, but could you recommend a better general overview?
 
Today I'd say it's the default position among most academic theologians, but is still a minority view among Christians as a whole.

Can you explain that to me? How can someone who doesn't believe in Christianity actually define Christian theology? I mean, I guess you could make a more limited claim such as "The Bible supports a Universalist position (DEFINITELY not my view)" or "Such and such a theologian makes a good argument for a Universalist position" but without some kind of framework the only way to make a theological determination is... faith... Which a non-religious theologian would not have.

Care to explain further?
 
Can you explain that to me? How can someone who doesn't believe in Christianity actually define Christian theology? I mean, I guess you could make a more limited claim such as "The Bible supports a Universalist position (DEFINITELY not my view)" or "Such and such a theologian makes a good argument for a Universalist position" but without some kind of framework the only way to make a theological determination is... faith... Which a non-religious theologian would not have.

Care to explain further?

Plenty of academic theologians are Christians.
 
I know he said before that most modern theologians reject Eternal Damnation, but I thought he said then that Conditional Immortality was their most common view. When did Universalism overtake Conditionalism?
 
Umh, didn't Nietzsche became a professor of classical philology at his 24?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Professor_at_Basel_.281869.E2.80.931879.29

Indeed he did, which backs up my point that I don't know much about Nietzsche. Still, his most important philosophical work was done after he gave up that position, which wasn't in philosophy, and he was subsequently unable to get another university post owing to the unorthodox nature of his views. So he wasn't really an academic philosopher in the modern sense.

Can you explain that to me? How can someone who doesn't believe in Christianity actually define Christian theology? I mean, I guess you could make a more limited claim such as "The Bible supports a Universalist position (DEFINITELY not my view)" or "Such and such a theologian makes a good argument for a Universalist position" but without some kind of framework the only way to make a theological determination is... faith... Which a non-religious theologian would not have.

Care to explain further?

As _random_ said, there are plenty of Christian academic theologians. By "academic theologians" here I meant professional theologians in the first sense of "theologian" that I gave in the OP, i.e. people who set out the faith of the church as they understand it from the viewpoint of faith, e.g. people such as Jürgen Moltmann, who is, incidentally, a good example of a prominent universalist theologian.

I know he said before that most modern theologians reject Eternal Damnation, but I thought he said then that Conditional Immortality was their most common view. When did Universalism overtake Conditionalism?

Did I say that conditional immortality was the most common view among theologians? I don't remember doing so. I don't know if it's true or if there were a time when it was true, although I wouldn't be surprised. It's simply my guess that universalism is the most common view today - this is just on the basis of what I've read and who I've talked to - but I don't know if there are any proper studies of the prevailing beliefs of academic theologians or how they have changed. It would be interesting to know.
 
As _random_ said, there are plenty of Christian academic theologians. By "academic theologians" here I meant professional theologians in the first sense of "theologian" that I gave in the OP, i.e. people who set out the faith of the church as they understand it from the viewpoint of faith, e.g. people such as Jürgen Moltmann, who is, incidentally, a good example of a prominent universalist theologian.

Thanks. I thought you were referring to the second sense, hence the confusion.
 
Is belief that God intervenes in the world (through influencing actions, commanding, or answering prayer) compatible with free will?

I'm not quite sure why I can't reconcile those two thoughts, unless I'm misunderstanding what free will means. Perhaps I'm taking an overly reductionist stance, going back a chain of events and deciding if one of those events wasn't the result of a free choice, the subsequent events also cannot be considered a free choice.

So I guess, I'm not only looking for an answer to my question, but looking for what goes into the answer.
 
So I was reading about the Circumcellions on Wiki and found this quote:
Because Jesus had told Peter to put down his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18:11), the Circumcellions piously avoided bladed weapons and instead opted for the use of blunt clubs, which they called "Israelites."
Did these guys have any reasoning deeper than this about why bladed weapons ought to be condemned but clubs are okay or was that seriously the extent of it? I mean, that seems really superficial and insane, but this is a group known for a near-suicidal view of martyrdom.

Also, have you ever read Being as Communion by John D. Zizoulas? Would you recommend it?
 
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