Ask an atheist (the second coming)

[Ayatollah So]

He can look at your face and predict with 100% accuracy what you are going to do? Every single time?

No, not every single time - I said, some of the time. Especially, the times when something or someone dear to me rests on one side of the decision and nothing on the other. Of course, I could always tell him what I'm about to do in the other cases ... which just further proves that predictability has nothing to do with unfreedom.

 

[cardgame]

Your friend's predictions are irrelevant to the issue at hand. If someone has 100% knowledge of what you are going to do, then your freedom of choice is merely an illusion.

 

[El_Machinae]

I've listened to the lectures, but I just have a acceptance-blip. I don't see how we have more actual free will than a plant does. If free will scales with sentience, do we predict that we'll have more free will in the future?

 

[warpus]

No, not every single time - I said, some of the time. Especially, the times when something or someone dear to me rests on one side of the decision and nothing on the other. Of course, I could always tell him what I'm about to do in the other cases ... which just further proves that predictability has nothing to do with unfreedom.

Our whole back-and-forth started when you claimed he could predict exactly what you were going to do, 100% of the time.

If that's not what you claim at all, maybe you should revisit the first time you quoted me in this exchange.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Your friend's predictions are irrelevant to the issue at hand. If someone has 100% knowledge of what you are going to do, then your freedom of choice is merely an illusion.

So, if I tell someone what I'm going to do and I'm completely honest about it, I'm giving up any freedom of choice I might otherwise have had??? Makes no sense.

Our whole back-and-forth started when you claimed he could predict exactly what you were going to do, 100% of the time.

Nope:

Disagree, because prediction =/= control. A friend who knows me well can predict some of my decisions. That doesn't make those decisions unfree.

emphasis added.

 

[warpus]

You quoted me initially because I said this

A deterministic universe makes free will impossible

I guess I misread what you wrote because this is your response

Disagree, because prediction =/= control. A friend who knows me well can predict some of my decisions. That doesn't make those decisions unfree.

Prediction isn't control, but that's not why a deterministic universe implies that true free will is impossible.

It implies that true will is impossible because fate in a deterministic universe is already decided - there is no room for "decisions".

 

[Ayatollah So]

It implies that true will is impossible because fate in a deterministic universe is already decided - there is no room for "decisions".

Decided by whom? The physical universe acts the way it does because of its contents. Electrons cause certain effects, protons cause other effects, and so on. One of the kinds of things in the universe is people. Or I should say many of the kinds, since people are different from each other, unlike electrons which are all the same.

Here's a loony idea for you - everything in the universe has causality (it effects what happens) EXCEPT PEOPLE. Every material thing has powers - but we don't. Or, here's a narrowly focused version, which is just as loony: everything is a cause, except the human brain. Or, everything is a cause, except the parts of the human brain that are involved in decisions (or, allegedly, "decisions" - but the scare-quotes need justification).

Now explain how there is no room for decisions, without appealing to the loony idea.

 

[warpus]

Decided by whom? The physical universe acts the way it does because of its contents. Electrons cause certain effects, protons cause other effects, and so on. One of the kinds of things in the universe is people. Or I should say many of the kinds, since people are different from each other, unlike electrons which are all the same.

Here's a loony idea for you - everything in the universe has causality (it effects what happens) EXCEPT PEOPLE. Every material thing has powers - but we don't. Or, here's a narrowly focused version, which is just as loony: everything is a cause, except the human brain. Or, everything is a cause, except the parts of the human brain that are involved in decisions (or, allegedly, "decisions" - but the scare-quotes need justification).

Now explain how there is no room for decisions, without appealing to the loony idea.

If the universe is deterministic, it operates as a giant clock, with many switches, dials, or whatever the hell they put in clocks these days.

Things inside twist and turn, but it's all very mechanical. Everything has a cause and can be predicted. For example, you know that the big hand is going to move 2 degrees, in 2 seconds.

The clock does not have free will so it does not behave unexpectedly. If you know what's inside, and all the variables, you'll know exactly when that big hand will move.

That's just the property of a deterministic machine - it behaves 100% predictably; There is only one path for it to take.

A non-deterministic machine has many paths. You won't be able to predict the outcome just by looking at the inside and analyzing all the variables.

 

[erez87]

The universe is NOT deterministic. At its most basic, at the particles that make up everything, it is statistically random and cannot be deterministic, ever.

 

[warpus]

The universe is NOT deterministic. At its most basic, at the particles that make up everything, it is statistically random and cannot be deterministic, ever.

Yep, that's true.

 

[Defiant47]

The universe is NOT deterministic. At its most basic, at the particles that make up everything, it is statistically random and cannot be deterministic, ever.

Thanks to the wonders of quantum mechanics, we have free will!

 

[erez87]

Thanks to the wonders of quantum mechanics, we have free will!

What's free in random things happening?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The samples at Walmart.

 

[Ayatollah So]

The clock does not have free will so it does not behave unexpectedly. If you know what's inside, and all the variables, you'll know exactly when that big hand will move.

Predictability is orthogonal to free will. A chaotic system - like a turbulent fluid flow - is unpredictable. You could have a computer as big as the universe, and still fail to calculate its behavior in advance. But it doesn't have free will.

Having a will, and some intelligence/rationality, would seem more relevant. Which would include such things as: being conscious, having goals and desires, being capable of imagining scenarios, etc.

What's free in random things happening?

I don't get that either.

 

[ArneHD]

I have a question: If you put two identical people next to each other, one with free will and one without (you just know this), would there be any difference between them, in terms of their behaviour, physical make up etc.? Would anything observable be different?

Edit: This is directed at the whole Free will debate thing. I am myself an atheist.

 

[erez87]

I have a question: If you put two identical people next to each other, one with free will and one without (you just know this), would there be any difference between them, in terms of their behaviour, physical make up etc.? Would anything observable be different?

Doubtful.

I don't believe in Free Will.

 

[ArneHD]

Doubtful.

I don't believe in Free Will.

Me neither for that matter. I'm really just wondering if there is a coherent and/or scientific argument that free will exists.

 

[Defiant47]

We should probably first answer the question

Is free will meaningful?

 

[warpus]

Predictability is orthogonal to free will. A chaotic system - like a turbulent fluid flow - is unpredictable. You could have a computer as big as the universe, and still fail to calculate its behavior in advance. But it doesn't have free will.

It doesn't matter if it's possible to build a machine to predict the system. What matters is that it's theoretically possible, since the system is deterministic.

I'm not saying that nondeterminism implies free will. I'm just saying that you can't have free will in a deterministic system.

Having a will, and some intelligence/rationality, would seem more relevant. Which would include such things as: being conscious, having goals and desires, being capable of imagining scenarios, etc.

All would be impossible in a deterministic universe, imo.

 

[Maniacal]

Well, considering that the illusion of free will is/could be good enough to keep us happy, I'm leaning towards no.