At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks

[CavLancer]

Terribly sad for those victims and their families, what a loss. Going to be a lot of funerals and interviews with grieving family. France will be in mourning...a lot of pain yet to endure. Many wounded, damn.

 

[Akka]

Although these attacks are not on the scale of the Tet Offensive, the fact that so many attacks could be carried out without any pre-attack leaks alerting the authorities, is very troubling.

How so ?
As I pointed before, it's maybe a dozen of guys in a city of 10 millions inhabitants and 50 millions tourists who have smuggled a few small arms.
It's not like it was a military operation including thousands of troops and large-scale logistical supplies in the middle of an empty plain.

And also, this attack happened, but we don't know about many others attacks which may have happened but were prevented. You only ever hear about the ones who aren't stopped in time.

So I just read that Hollande stated France will "lead the fight and it will be merciless" in his address to the French people. Can any French posters here tell me what they think this means? Will France actually be going to war over this? Will we just see airstrikes and maybe some commando action against ISIS, or would we see large scale military operations maybe even reaching the point of all-out invasion of ISIS territory?

Well, I suppose it means the same as any president making an appropriate speech after some big event : about nothing. France is already at war with ISIS anyway, so it will hardly change anything. Probably an increase in undercover operations, and maybe some more bombing runs and some change with Russia.

I am really wondering what the fallout will be over this. Hopefully these perpetrators were part of a foreign terrorist cell, instead of domestic born terrorist influences. Europe is in a precarious political position as a whole. Its easier to deal with foreign elements for France than domestic

Witnesses claim that the guys were speaking french. Either the terrorists deliberately spoke french to increase the rift between populations in France, or (which seems the more likely to me) they are simply French-born radicals.

I was just watching CNN. The French police earlier implied that ALL attackers are dead.

Actually, the news I've heard were all relative to the Bataclan when it came to "attackers are all dead". And the authorities have, as you said, kept a VERY resounding silence about if other attackers were at large (which is, well, pretty logical, as it's obvious those terrorists are monitoring the news).

 

[AdrienIer]

And i really hope that POS figures in north europe will at least shy a bit away from taking advantage of the blood shed in France.

Some of the extreme right here have already started to take advantage of the events. I doubt it will be any different in the rest of Europe.

 

[Kyriakos]

I saw the following line on FB (below a pic from the Paris attacks)

"If anyone was wondering what those refugees were running away from, now you know".

Which while somewhat (for most cases) a hyperbole, is poignant as well (although i can easily see how it can be read as reactionary or way too focused on the plight of the refugees when today there is this other main event anyway).

Of course now the mourning is what must go through.

 

[T-mun]

If there was a way to ensure that Europe's borders stay closed to Muslim immigrants, this is it.

You don't know Europe or France very well do you? There are many french muslims, and the most extremists are generally people who converted recently. In many European countries, Islam is already one of the largest religion after Catholicism or Protestantism. You cannot throw people out of their country just because of their faith.

Gulf countries speak Arabic and have the same religion. Why chose Europe?

Because they prefer democracy to tyranic monarchy. Astonishing, huh?

 

[T-mun]

To all who wonder if the terrorists are dead, yes they are (according to french national radio and television). They all had bomb-belts and 7 out of 8 made it explode.

EDIT: 8 terrorists are dead, it is still not sure how many of them there were.

 

[Kyriakos]

Australian tv news running with a Dutch flag backdrop, top effort guys.

Uh...

Well, the positive of that is that even in this tragedy there is some laughter to be had, momentarily if anything...

/facepalm..

 

[Groff]

Unofficial police sources say that a Syrian passport has been found on one of the attackers:

A Syrian passport has been found on the body of one of the attackers, AP reports, citing police sources.

French TV is carrying the same line, but it has not been independently verified by the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34815972

 

[Cheetah]

Nawaz comments is always a good read:

Jihadism has well and truly taken root among an entire generation of angry young Muslims. This is particularly the case in Europe, where thousands have left to join ISIS. This insurgency is incredibly hard to tackle, because its recruits remain invisible in our very own societies, born and raised among us, fluent in our languages and culture, but full of venom for everything they have been raised into.

Though London is by now well overdue a similar attack, a question that could legitimately be asked is why does France seem to be bearing the brunt of such coordinated jihadist terror, up until now most potently symbolised by the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Unfortunately for France, though not unique to it, between 5 and 10 percent of its population is Muslim. Real, serious problems with economic and social integration prevail in this group, fuelling resentment on a scale that baffles most expert policy makers. Even if hundreds, out of millions, take this resentment to its deadly conclusion, France has a huge problem on its hands, as we saw on Friday. But so do we all.

Recognizing this is not to stigmatize every European or Western Muslim—the vast majority of whom are not, of course, jihadists—but it means being realistic about exactly where the challenge is coming from, and what the challenge is called: Islamism. Up until now the bitter truth that our Muslim populations have been subjected to decades of sustained Islamist propaganda by those who live among them has gone almost totally ignored. The long term solution cannot continue to ignore this truth, and cannot continue to neglect those few Muslims, and others, attempting to take on this threat within their own communities.

Unfortunately, the true source of Islamism is found among the elites in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries, so I fear there won't be any improvements for the time being...

 

[JohnRM]

Unofficial police sources say that a Syrian passport has been found on one of the attackers:



http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34815972

American cable "news" sources are also reporting the same thing.

 

[CavLancer]

I wonder who the victims were. There are a lot of empty rooms in the houses of French families. I'd guess most of the people to die at a rock concert would be young, very hard on parents to have their kids die first. Or young French couples torn apart, or perhaps dying together. Lots of coworkers missing friends, a familiar face at the lunchroom, or friend at the water cooler. Going to be a lot of difficult and perhaps unendurable changes for a lot of people, as with all really terrible events. All right in one of the world's truly great international cities. If this doesn't stop Paris won't be considered a safe place to visit anymore, and what a loss for the free world that would be. This is a tragedy on many levels, I just hope the French can get some control again so this doesn't turn into a regular thing.


Now what? Bury the dead, get used to the loss and emptiness. Of course France will want to take this to their enemy, France will demand it, and their enemy has shown how easily it can infiltrate...and has infiltrated extensively. This is not the end. One day at a time I guess.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Uh...

Well, the positive of that is that even in this tragedy there is some laughter to be had, momentarily if anything...

/facepalm..

Hopefully, they aren't bad prophets...

 

[Arwon]

ISIS themselves know the score. It's not a new idea - "the worse the better" is an old idea about provoking hatred and repression to eliminate middle ground.

They love for us to think Islam and migrants and all that are an inherent problem and that they're incompatible with the west because *they agree* and want such fights to happen because it strengthens them.

 

[Funky]

Not one day has past since over a hundred people were killed by Islamists, and German Muslim organizations are all over themselves in saying that this has nothing to do with Islam, even warning the German media not to draw a connection to their religion. Pathetic cowards.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

German Muslim organizations are all over themselves in saying that this has nothing to do with Islam, even warning the German media not to draw a connection to their religion.

And if they didn't say this people would ask why they aren't condemning terrorism.

 

[chijohnaok]

A French news article with a video that appears to have been taken from across the street of the Bataclan concert venue:


[Warning: For those that are squeemish, the video includes images of dead/wounded people]

http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-pa...-explosait-dans-mon-bras_4809665_4809495.html

[What's amazing (IMHO) is the person (a woman I think) that was hanging by what appeared to be her fingertips from a 3rd floor window ledge.]

 

[Ajidica]

BBC reports that the attacks may have been carrier out in response to French intervention against IS in Syria:

The attack on the 1,500-seat Bataclan concert hall was the deadliest of Friday night's attacks. Gunmen opened fire on a sell-out gig by US rock group Eagles of Death Metal, killing at least 80 people.

"At first we thought it was part of the show but we quickly understood," Pierre Janaszak, a radio presenter, told AFP news agency.

"They didn't stop firing. There was blood everywhere, corpses everywhere. We heard screaming. Everyone was trying to flee."

He said the gunmen took 20 hostages, and he heard one of them tell their captives: "It's the fault of Hollande, it's the fault of your president, he should not have intervened in Syria".

Within an hour, security forces had stormed the concert hall and all four attackers there were dead. Three had blown themselves up and a fourth was shot dead by police.

AFP news agency quotes sources involved in the investigation as saying that one of those who carried out the concert hall attack, a French citizen, has been identified.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34820016

 

[Funky]

And if they didn't say this people would ask why they aren't condemning terrorism.

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask? Lying to everyone, as they have been doing for 15 years now, instead of being man enough to take some responsibility for belonging to the same death cult that leads to ISIS and global terror, is nothing but pure cowardice. And it will only increase the divide between them and non-Muslims, since by now the news has spread into the last corners of Europe that Islamists offer a very plausible version of the faith. Continuing to deny that, in 2015, after years and years of barbaric violence and terror committed in the name of Islam, will only further sow distrust and contempt.

Moderator Action: "Death cult" rhetoric goes too far. Please avoid using phrases like that when describing Islam.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Tigranes]

SINONE, Iraq — The Islamic State claimed responsibility on Saturday for the
catastrophic attacks in the French capital, calling them “the first of the storm”
and mocking France as a “capital of prostitution and obscenity,” according to
statements released in multiple languages on one of the terror group’s
encrypted messaging accounts.

The statement was released on the same Telegram channel that was used
to claim responsibility for the crash of a Russian jet over the Sinai Peninsula
two weeks ago, killing 224 people. As in that case, it made the announcement
in multiple languages and audio recordings.
President François Hollande of France said on Saturday that the Islamic
State was responsible Analysts said that the nature of the attacks was more in
keeping with actions of the Islamic State than with those of Al Qaeda, and the
timing and extent of the celebration expressed online by the group’s
supporters added weight to the claim.

“Eight brothers, wrapped in explosive belts and armed with machine
rifles, targeted sites that were accurately chosen in the heart of the capital of
France,” the group said in the statement, “including the Stade de France
during the match between the Crusader German and French teams, where the
fool of France, François Hollande, was present.”
“Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on
the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State,” the statement added,
referring to the attacks at the Bataclan concert hall and several districts in
Paris.

The style of the attack was in line with the Islamic State’s tactic of
indiscriminate killings and goes against Al Qaeda’s guidelines. In a 2013
directive, the leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al Zawahri, stated that Qaeda
operatives should avoid attacks that could inadvertently cause the death of
Muslim civilians and noncombatant women or children.
He argued that targeting markets, for example, was unadvisable because
innocent Muslims might accidentally be killed.
Although Qaeda branches have deviated from these guidelines on
numerous occasions, their attacks reflect more carefully defined targeting, as
was the case in the killings at the Charlie Hebdo office in Paris in January.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask?

Yeah.
Asking muslims to say 'Our religion is inherently violent and terrorism is perfectly in line with our values' is indeed too much to ask.