When the proposed expropriations are combined with very thinly veiled threats of genocide and denial of political rights, it begins to affect the majority I think.
Australia Considering Humanitarian Visas for Persecuted Farmers in South Africa
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warpus
In pork I trust
No, that's not what I said or my point was. But I admit this are complex issues and it's easy to misinterpret somebody else's or your own position
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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"Culture" is a learned property of human beings, not an inherited one. This is pretty obvious when you look at any genetically similar/identical group of people exposed to different environments from young age.
If we accept the proposition that culture is the cause of suffering, the necessary conclusion is that it's a mistake of the present that living members of that culture take responsibility.
That's a really big if. I do not accept that proposition in this case. As a country we've implemented policy choices that result in the present day feedback loop that have been in play for more than most of our lifetimes. That's not "punishing for crimes of ancestors", it's "punishing people past and present with inane policy that negatively influences both the population in question and how others treat them".
Timsup2nothin
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It might be more accurate to say we punish people for the crimes of our own ancestors.
TheMeInTeam
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Even that's too much passing the buck. While we're probably thinking of difference approaches, the reality is that the punishment and responsibility for it continues on the shoulders of those living today. Though perhaps critical voting mass is a little too far gone.
It's the use of the term 'punish'. It's deliberately loaded. In society, we have to redress historical issues, but it's very rarely going to be in the form of 'punishment'.
Berzerker
Deity
if I stole your property returning it is part of the punishment
Yes, but it's specifically evoking a certain emotion. It's why everyone against the idea will insist on using the word 'punishment'. But you can return stolen property without it being a punishment, for example, if the property has been transfered from the thief to someone else.
Berzerker
Deity
Punishment 'corrects' a wrong, persecution doesn't... What blurs the line between them is the criminals are dead and their descendants are being punished for their crimes instead. But because the line is blurred the punishment is limited to returning the stolen property.
Generally speaking restitution and disgorgement are equitable remedies, i.e. not punitive.
So, interestingly, I can tell most of your worldview on this topic merely because you insist on using the word 'punishment'. Are you capable of couching something like this using an alternative paradigm?
Very interesting. Are you saying that the heritability of political views is zero? I guess I will have to ask a moderator if this is something that can be discussed on CFC.
Moderator Action: You are well aware of a moderator action on this point. To reiterte so that people know: No you cannot post a thread dedicated to racist or racist-inspired theories about "race" differences in terms of intelligence or anything akin to that. Warned for public discussion of moderator action. -ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
What is this punishment that you guys speak of? Please, do help me. Make the implicit explicit, if you will?
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You can't hold a 6 year old responsible for the "culture" of the society he is growing up in... but he goes to bed hungry just the same... he goes to a failing school just the same... birthdays skip him just the same. You can blame his parents and grandparents for the "culture"... but that's punishing the 6 year old for his ancestor's crimes... again, as you say IF we accept the idea that its "the culture" causing the problem... which I don't. My point is that folks will selectively blame "the culture" of a population for their suffering, which is essentially, justifying the punishing of the children for the "crimes" of the ancestors... while simultaneously bemoaning the unfairness of a different population "being punished for the crimes of their ancestors". I'm just pointing out the inconsistency/selective outrage.
I am not entirely sure what you mean by punishment. I am reduced to guesswork here. Are you African-American? Do you feel as though African-Americans are unfairly treated by the society they live in? Would you like to lift the yoke of the evil white man off your shoulders? Do you feel like African-Americans have the right to pursue their own destiny, free from the deleterious influence of white people? To choose how their own communities should be policed? If yes, then I agree. But like I said, I am reduced to guesswork here. I apologize if I interpreted your message wrong. My support towards your cause may not mean much, but in any case, please, do correct me if anything I've stated here is wrong.
TheMeInTeam
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We don't *have* to do anything. It would be useful to define a limitation on "how far back", necessary for the concept to even function.
Political views =/= culture. They are a tiny subset. I guess we could test it by seeing how consistently children adopted as newborns mimic parental political views compared to biological children.
You don't hold 6 year olds responsible for much of anything except their immediate behaviors, and then only if you're someone supervising them. Enough with the children red herring
.No, it isn't. If, on average the parents in any population are taking actions that are harmful to their children, the people making those choices in aggregate are the ones putting their own children in a bad position. Do you really want to go back to segregated communities? Calling influence "deleterious" and asking for different legal applications sure makes it sound that way. TBH I'd rather see actual integration, but the real world doesn't have a lot of good working models for what that looks like.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Apartheid ended in 1994, my dude. We're not talking about the murky depths of prehistory.
Yes you do hold them responsible. The poverty itself is what is holding them responsible, even though they have nothing to do with it. Its not a red-herring, its just impossible to refute so people want to dismiss it rather than just admit they can't deal with itYou don't hold 6 year olds responsible for much of anything except their immediate behaviors, and then only if you're someone supervising them. Enough with the children red herring
Yes that's exactly what I said... you're holding the adults responsible... ie the ancestors. But the kids are suffering the consequences right along with the adults.
timtofly
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How can individuals even "hold" property if they have been taught holding property is wrong in the first place? If the established government says it is wrong for one set of people to do something they have been conditioned to do, what is the recourse?
If a government forces another set of people to do something they are not conditioned to do will society fall apart? I do not think that punishment is the proper stance to point out injustice being done. It is the upheaval of society norms that is being ignored because racism is so closely ingrained in culture one way or the other. It is easier to blame it on injustice, even though that is the biggest racist position of all. Humans can easily be disposed of and completely forgotten about in a short period of time. It is society, and culture itself that seems unchangeable.
If a government forces another set of people to do something they are not conditioned to do will society fall apart? I do not think that punishment is the proper stance to point out injustice being done. It is the upheaval of society norms that is being ignored because racism is so closely ingrained in culture one way or the other. It is easier to blame it on injustice, even though that is the biggest racist position of all. Humans can easily be disposed of and completely forgotten about in a short period of time. It is society, and culture itself that seems unchangeable.
Again, I don't know much about South Africa, but this point here is why I am two-centing in the thread. Canada is currently undergoing rebuilding things with our Indigious peoples, and the abuses also took place in living memory. Your answer here to TheMeInTeam is pretty good.
Australia too. Terra Nullius (the legal doctrine that nobody owned Australia before European colonisation) was overturned in 1992. Native title didn't exist before that, and cases are still being litigated to this day as different groups try to get rights to their land back.
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