Ayn Rand, Objectivism, Atlas Shrugged, et al.

That, or a bigger criminal syndicate.

Eventually, you might even end up with a syndicate so big that it has its own flag and theme song and forgets that it's a criminal syndicate.

But that would be silly.
 
That, or a bigger criminal syndicate.

Eventually, you might even end up with a syndicate so big that it has its own flag and theme song and forgets that it's a criminal syndicate.

But that would be silly.

Silly. Or history. Or both.

Probably both.
 
I find the difference between governments and criminal organizations thin at best. I mean, both have rules in place to control the behaviors of those that operate within them, both have methods of making revenue (often the same ways, as in the case of casinos which make money for both the government and criminal organizations) and both use violence. The only real difference is in the level of violence and ability to project power. The government holds almost a full monopoly on the use of force though, which is probably the biggest difference.
 
That works both ways, mind you: if states are criminal organisations writ large, criminal organisations are the state operating on a small scale. It's not enough to just conclude "government = gangsters", y'see, that's too easy, you really have to reflect on how violence and money and authority all come together, and if you do, you'll probably find yourself with as many criticisms of capital as you have of the state.
 
It's really about the sort of organisation "criminal syndicate" refers to, rather than the designation "criminal".
 
That works both ways, mind you: if states are criminal organisations writ large, criminal organisations are the state operating on a small scale. It's not enough to just conclude "government = gangsters", y'see, that's too easy, you really have to reflect on how violence and money and authority all come together, and if you do, you'll probably find yourself with as many criticisms of capital as you have of the state.

Disreg*rd F*males Acqu*re Curr*ncy
 
the word criminal is the only differentiating word between the two. Because criminal organizations are states acting outside an officially recognized nation. Let me try to explain it this way- both are pretty much the same. Because they are so similar, they are pretty much natural enemies, because they challenge each other's power. But by definition, the state holds the greater force, therefore criminal organizations are on the losing side of this battle. That it not to say that it isn't more complicated than that, there are certainly times when the state and criminal organizations can have coinciding interests, but for the most part, they oppose each other. People may argue that America is better than any criminal organization, and that may be true, but this is for government in general, and not all governments are that different from criminal organizations, right down to behavior and even America has some elements (systematic abuse of civil forfeiture=protection money, I mean really, it is the poor and weak who are extorted by these and occasionally the rich can suffer too.) that seem a little criminal syndicate-ish. That said, I do believe there comes a point where the analogy fails, I simply see no need to look deeply for it.
 
Agreed, but the 'free market' has no mechanism to prevent that either. Some form of collective law enforcement, almost certainly based on the principle of greater violence, is a necessary adjunct to the 'free market'.

so the free market allows murder for profit because it cant be prevented but dis-allows self or collective defense?
 
so the free market allows murder for profit because it cant be prevented but dis-allows self or collective defense?

It neither allows nor disallows. In that it functions just like any other enterprise that particular enterprise is just another participant in the market. Self defense, or defense for hire, is nothing but an obstacle to be overcome as can exist for any other business...but collective defense effectively voids the basic principle of the free market...but is necessary to make it function. Hence the 'free market' cannot sustain itself.
 
So libertarian anarcho-capitalism is a resurrected Dixiecrat getting subsidies for shrimp fishers?
I'll stick with Social Democracy, thank you very much.

First of all, I was talking about the quote, not Ron Paul as an individual.

Second of all, the subsidy issue has been discussed ad nauseum in the libertarian community. There is no universal consensus regarding it as of yet, but the argument would be that if the government must spend money sending it to a definitively quantifiable location is better than allowing the President to spend it wherever he wants. That's how Ron Paul justified it. I happen to agree with him, but it is controversial among libertarians.

Third of all, not sure what you mean by "Dixiecrat." Ron Paul believes in states rights because he believes decentralization will lead to more liberty. Now, I think the logical conclusion of his thinking is to advocate county rights over states, town rights over counties, and ultimately individual rights over anything else. But, its completely consistent with anarcho-capitalism to oppose centralization of authority. Most ancaps, including Murray Rothbard, have taken this position. There is some dissent, of course (Get ten libertarians in a room and you'll have at least 11 different opinions;))

It's one of my favorite quotes of his. I'm not an Ancap, but I certainly can sympathize with them.

Just out of curiosity, what parts of ancap do you disagree with?
. It's more of a moral stance than a viable economic system, though some libertarians like to think it's a viable economic system. That it would outperform modern systems economically is a bit of a stretch given how many market failures it cannot handle plus the government's history of investment in gamechanging technologies (nuclear, Internet, satellite, etc.). It's more of a moral stance " you should not be able to to Force me to pay for stuff I don wanna pay for". In many ways, it's reasonable. It's just not viable

The reason why we support it is moral. The fact that we think it will work is circumstantial, though "work" certainly needs to be defined.
 
I miss Domm.
He must have got busted by hes parents repeating what he learned here.
 
I believe in temporal self-ownership (There are many ways you can justify this, I prefer the explanation that the right is given by God, but there are other ways people use as well.)

I believe that the right to own said property stems from said ownership, we own the fruits of our labor.

To take such things by force (through taxation or otherwise) is theft, thus inherently immoral. Since all monopoly-states violate this rule, they are illegitimate.

Furthermore, per self-ownership, laws that are incompatible with the NAP are illegitimate.

I believe that a society that recognizes the importance of non-aggression and private property will provide better results than one based on coercion, even if some people (criminals) use coercion some portion of the time.

Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar...
 
I actually liked Atlas Shrugged. It's was quite entertaining, though Galt's speech was a bit many pages too long.

The philosophy and moral arguments were mostly plagiarized however. It's easy to see that Rand grew up in Russia. The original version still appeals to me now, just as it did when I was a child. :)

Oh, and if you have no idea what this thread is about, this is a good overview:

Spoiler :


Anyone have something more to add on the subject?

I'd say Ayn Rand had some wacky views on some things, but she really nailed the spirit of capitalism in the 1st half of Atlas Shrugged.

The speech "On Money" given by one of the fictional characters was quite good simply amazing.
http://jim.com/money.htm

Spoiler :
Ayn Rand on money​

From ATLAS SHRUGGED, by Ayn Rand, page 387:​

Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil—and he's the typical product of money."

Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor— your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions—and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is MADE—before it can be looted or mooched—made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss—the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery—that you must offer them values, not wounds—that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of GOODS. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade—with reason, not force, as their final arbiter—it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability—and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality—the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth—the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money—and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it."

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another—their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich—will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt—and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the double standard—the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money—the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law—men who use force to seize the wealth of DISARMED victims—then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while your damning its life-blood—money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves—slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers—as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a COUNTRY OF MONEY—and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being—the self-made man—the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to MAKE money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide-as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns—or dollars. Take your choice—there is no other—and your time is running out."

Woooo *Shivers*, and that right there is why she is "still a thing" :dance:
Greatest speech in history?
America #1!


And if that was too long to read, here is a shorter comic version of why capitalism is good. :D
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-10/how-saving-grows-economy
 
My introduction to Rand's brand if libertarian ideal, aka Objectivism was through the work of her protege Terry Goodkind. Anyone unfortunately acquainted with the pile of garbage he wrote, The Sword of Truth series, will understand why that turned me off of the philosophy.

:lol:

I read about half the series, but stopped after one too many WTH moments.

Years later I peeked ahead to see if the main character had turned evil (without knowing it) and new heroes had risen to challenge him, but that would have made "The Sword of Truth" novels among the best ever written.
Ya, didn't happen. :(

Here's a site that pokes fun at it.
http://sandstormreviews.blogspot.com/2006/08/goodkind-parodies.html

The hippie slaughter reminds me of the moment near the end of Atlas Shrugged when someone gets murdered.
http://mikecanex.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/was-dagny-taggart-right-to-shoot-after-all/
 
It neither allows nor disallows. In that it functions just like any other enterprise that particular enterprise is just another participant in the market. Self defense, or defense for hire, is nothing but an obstacle to be overcome as can exist for any other business...but collective defense effectively voids the basic principle of the free market...but is necessary to make it function. Hence the 'free market' cannot sustain itself.

why does a free market preclude my neighbors and I from hiring someone to protect us?
 

Dommination3000 aka Domm is a Republican Libertarian.
Eventually he said he could not come to CFC OT anymore, he started to learn stuff and was becoming a Democrat. Less Republican.
 
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