Blackwater Murderers Go Free On Technicality

[MobBoss]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "The World".

I'm just talking about ordinary Iraqis.

Fine. If ordinary Iraqis ignore the fact that we have tried/convicted/sent to prison other such criminals, and only complain, then why should we even listen to their complaints if they fail to recognize when we DO punish wrongdoing?

My point being, Iraqis are going to complain or believe what they want, no matter what. We just need to do what we need to via our justice system and continue on regardless.

 

[warpus]

Fine. If ordinary Iraqis ignore the fact that we have tried/convicted/sent to prison other such criminals, and only complain, then why should we even listen to their complaints if they fail to recognize when we DO punish wrongdoing?

I don't know, do they (fail to recognize)? I'm sure American soldiers being jailed as a result of committing murder would have been applauded by everyday Iraqis.

This didn't happen? Did they boo and throw rocks instead, or something? (I really don't know, I presume that you do)

How often has this happened, anyway?

 

[FriendlyFire]

U.S. District Judge Ricardo Urbina cited repeated government missteps in the investigation, saying that prosecutors built their case on sworn statements that the guards had given with the idea that they would be immune from prosecution.

LMAO

No wonder Republicans are worried that terrorist are to be tried on US soil by the US justice system.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Heh. You know that is their worst fear. And, of course, you would see the typical flip-flop from the "law and order" crowd.

I just wonder if we will ever find out the real story behind the Iraqis in Fallujah hanging those Blackwater 'contractors'.

Blackwater mercenaries in Najaf providing "security" for the "State Department"? Warning. Harsh language starts about halfway in.

 

[Patroklos]

The "law and order" crowd has been perfectly consistant in this thread. You should try it some time.

 

[JollyRoger]

Law and Order (and our civilian court system) ftw:

9/11 conviction stands

Lyle Denniston | Monday, January 4th, 2010 5:46 pm

A strategic choice that terrorism conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui made in a move to save his life — pleading guilty to six charges that he had a role in the 9/11 Al Qaeda attacks on the U.S. — worked against him on Monday as a federal appeals court rejected all of his pleas for a new trial or a new sentencing. His guilty plea turned out to be the recurring rationale for most of the key findings against him by the Fourth Circuit Court in Richmond, Va. The 78-page opinion can be found here.

The three-judge panel’s ruling came in the only case so far in which the federal government prosecuted an individual for the 9/11 attacks, and may have provided some support for the Obama Administration’s argument that the civilian courts can handle such high-stakes terrorism prosecutions. The Administration has chosen the civilian court route for five individuals charged with more direct roles in the 9/11 plot than Moussaoui was accused of carrying out.

One of the key issues that hung over the entire prosecution of Moussaoui — how the government could proceed in civilian court in a case involving a mountain of classified evidence — proved to be of little difficulty for the Circuit Court panel. It upheld District Judge Leonie M. Brinkema’s handling of most of those complications.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/911-conviction-stands/#more-14378

 

[Formaldehyde]

The "law and order" crowd has been perfectly consistant in this thread. You should try it some time.

Yes, you consistently support lawbreaking mercenaries in their continuing efforts to escape justice.

And weren't you also one of the apologists of the torture and murder of innocent Muslim civlians as well?

It's all about "law and order".

 

[MobBoss]

Yes, you consistently support lawbreaking mercenaries in their continuing efforts to escape justice.

As opposed to you who consistently support lawbreakers in general? How precisely do YOU know they are guilty? Given the fact that even you have provided proof (via the innocense project) that even a confession/admission of guilt isnt sure proof they did it, what, pray tell, do you hinge your opinion on exactly (aside from it being simple assumption and a desire to see Americans convicted in foreign lands).

Point being, I dont think Pat supports them for being lawbreakers. I think Pat (and others) support them being actually proven guilty in a court of law based upon the facts first.

Besides havent you even said before 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Or are you more fond of 'innocent until assumed guilty'?

 

[dirtyparrot]

Can't we hand them over to the Iraqis to be processed as enemy combatants? No need for Iraqi law to apply to them since they are not Iraqis.

Seems to me that that would have been the logical thing to do. It's a crime against Iraqis by American citizens that are not in the military. I would think that this belongs in an Iraqi courtroom.

 

[JollyRoger]

Seems to me that that would have been the logical thing to do. It's a crime against Iraqis by American citizens that are not in the military. I would think that this belongs in an Iraqi courtroom.

no courtroom - just detain them until the war on terror is over

 

[Formaldehyde]

I just happen to know the perfect place and the proper way to detain them.

We just have to hand Gitmo over to the Iraqis. I bet the Cubans would be happy to arrange a swap.

 

[Berzerker]

Mobby, if its a specious assumption to think letting these guys walk will likely help enemy recruitment, why did people object to the release of Abu Ghraib photos?

 

[nonconformist]

Just let the Iraqis do what they usally do with these kind of people, and hang them from bridges.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobby, if its a specious assumption to think letting these guys walk will likely help enemy recruitment, why did people object to the release of Abu Ghraib photos?

First of all, photos have a visual and viral effect to them. They bring up emotion where some byline in a news article wouldnt.

There arent really any photos of Blackwater doing what they were accused of in this instance. The photos of Abu Graib are/were much more influential because of what they show than these guys getting released because the prosecution messed up or didnt have enough solid evidence to convict them.

Also, Abu Graib occurred during a much more volatile time in the War. Things have calmed down a great deal since then, and people arent really eager to go back to that.

 

[Berzerker]

So its a reasonable assumption to think releasing those photos would likely help enemy recruitment but its a specious assumption to think a billion Muslims watching these guys walk away wont?

 

[MobBoss]

So its a reasonable assumption to think releasing those photos would likely help enemy recruitment but its a specious assumption to think a billion Muslims watching these guys walk away wont?

Except that its a fact that a billion wont be watching them walk away.

I fail to see why you dont grasp why the photos of Abu Graib are far more condemning than this. /shrug.

 

[Berzerker]

You didn't answer the question, you'd rather argue over how many Muslims will find out? And it aint a matter of which is worse. If these guys walk away it will likely help enemy recruitment. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of our guys get assassinated as payback. Can you grasp that?

 

[MobBoss]

You didn't answer the question, you'd rather argue over how many Muslims will find out?

You brought up the number, not me.

And I did answer the question. Twice now. If the answer is above you thats not my problem.

Again, this Blackwater thing occurs at a less sensative time in Iraq and its not nearly as explosive as the photos from Abu Graib were.

If you dont get that or agree with it I cant help you. /shrug.

And it aint a matter of which is worse.

Of course it is. Worse examples of abuse will have a more negative effect.

If these guys walk away it will likely help enemy recruitment.

Whatever effect this has had has probably already come and gone long ago. The final outcome of it all is going to have a minimal effect for the reasons I gave.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some of our guys get assassinated as payback. Can you grasp that?

What do you base this assumption on?

Like I said, when things like this occur, the period immediately after that is the most dangerous while emotions are high. This long after the fact? After things have cooled down? Not so much.

 

[Berzerker]

You brought up the number, not me.

Its a pointless argument, this war can go on and on for decades and its perfectly feasible a billion Muslims will know these guys walked away

And I did answer the question. Twice now. If the answer is above you thats not my problem.

Again, this Blackwater thing occurs at a less sensative time in Iraq and its not nearly as explosive as the photos from Abu Graib were.

If you dont get that or agree with it I cant help you. /shrug.

It doesn't matter if you think the Abu Ghraib photos matter more to people than the panicked slaughter of 17 people, I imagine the people over there knew better than us what was happening at Abu Ghraib, the photos merely confirmed it. You seem to think the photos negate all other abuses, if we didn't have the rule of law here and killers walked what would happen? Relatives and friends (and clan/tribe) of the victims would go after the culprits. If they're in hiding, they'd go after their protectors. I have eons of history to back me up, you have some notion that we can sweep this under the rug without angering anyone enough to join the war against us.

Of course it is. Worse examples of abuse will have a more negative effect.

You say "more", that means the other incident also has a negative effect.

Whatever effect this has had has probably already come and gone long ago. The final outcome of it all is going to have a minimal effect for the reasons I gave.

They're in the process of walking, how can you say its effect is long gone? There are millions of Iraqis there waiting for justice and they aint gonna be happy to see these guys walk.

What do you base this assumption on?

Like I said, when things like this occur, the period immediately after that is the most dangerous while emotions are high. This long after the fact? After things have cooled down? Not so much.

Do you think any of our people got attacked when emotions were high? If these guys walk emotions will be high again.

 

[MobBoss]

Its a pointless argument, this war can go on and on for decades and its perfectly feasible a billion Muslims will know these guys walked away

First you bring up numbers.

Then complain when I argue that number.

Then you bring up the number again.

It doesn't matter if you think the Abu Ghraib photos matter more to people than the panicked slaughter of 17 people, I imagine the people over there knew better than us what was happening at Abu Ghraib, the photos merely confirmed it.

Oh I dont think they knew at all. It wasnt exactly public knowledge you know.

You seem to think the photos negate all other abuses,

Not at all. I am arguing that what you allege in regards to how this effects the situation in Iraq pales in comparison to what Abu Graib did.

if we didn't have the rule of law here and killers walked what would happen?

You need to remember that the rule of law, as you put it...goes two ways. This story is proof of that.

Relatives and friends (and clan/tribe) of the victims would go after the culprits. If they're in hiding, they'd go after their protectors. I have eons of history to back me up, you have some notion that we can sweep this under the rug without angering anyone enough to join the war against us.

I dont care about 'history' what do you have from the current situation in Iraq that supports this at all?

Any contractors been hunted down and assassinated in the USA that we dont know of?

You know something we dont?

You say "more", that means the other incident also has a negative effect.

Sure its going to have a negative effect, but I think given the length of time its taken to get to this point, its going to be negligable.

There isnt going to be mass assassinations over it. Thats just over-reaction.

They're in the process of walking, how can you say its effect is long gone? There are millions of Iraqis there waiting for justice and they aint gonna be happy to see these guys walk.

There you go bringing up numbers again.

Do you think any of our people got attacked when emotions were high? If these guys walk emotions will be high again.

They may go up a bit sure....but I dont think its going to cause violence.