Blackwater Murderers Go Free On Technicality

Unfortunetly Form, given the character of your bizarre rants about the crime scene, that is NOT a strawman. It is a characterization.

And before you try, it is not irony either. I am curious what incorrect vocabulary word you are going to use next though. :popcorn:
 
Unfortunetly Form, given the character of your bizarre rants about the crime scene, that is NOT a strawman. It is a characterization.

And before you try, it is not irony either. I am curious what incorrect vocabulary word you are going to use next though. :popcorn:

Maybe 'irrelevant'
 
Unfortunetly Form, given the character of your bizarre rants about the crime scene, that is NOT a strawman. It is a characterization.
Unfortunately Pat, given the character of your bizarre rants in this thread, you are ironically the one who apparently can't discern fiction from fact. :lol:
 
Hm, he tried anyway.
 
What Patroklos is still apparently trying to conveniently forget is that all of them, instead of just one, would be in prison for manslaughter right now if the Bush administration hadn't screwed up the prosecution. To try to claim that having a "fair" trial under these circumstances would have given them a chance to clear themselves is disingenuous at best.

I am not sure why this is the Bush administrations fault. :confused:

Unless, of course, one is in the habit of blaming Bush for everything...then it makes sense.

Sort of.

You mean besides granting them immunity and forcing them to testify against themselves? And besides allowing them to clean up all the eivdence from the crime scene? :lol:

You are apparently deliberately ignoring the facts.

I have yet to see any 'facts' provided in regards to the 'allowing them to clean up' thing you keep saying....

Who exactly was allowed to 'cleaned up' the crime scene?
 
Hm, he tried anyway.

:(

I am curious about this Alien Tort Claims Act. I googled it, but how could it be used here? It looked so cumbersome that the amount of resources need to use it makes sure it is impossible to use.
 
:(

I am curious about this Alien Tort Claims Act. I googled it, but how could it be used here? It looked so cumbersome that the amount of resources need to use it makes sure it is impossible to use.

Practically speaking it is an almost impossible burden for your average Iraqi citizen, or almost any foreigner, but technically it would be the primary avenue for anyone to file a suit against an American who may have committed a serious wrong generally recognized as a breach of international law or treaty. (If they wanted to do so in America... obviously if this person could seek redress in their home country that would be easier.)

In this case an Iraqi could allege (allege) a breach of international law, custom, or treaty.
 
Doesn't the immunity granted by the Iraqi government in this case make this a nonviable option, or does that just apply to the government of Iraq itself pressing charges?
 
The problem with an Alien Tort Statute claim would be finding a violation of "the law of nations or a treaty of the United States."

Indiscriminately firing on civilians is a violation of International Humanitarian Law, but I'm not sure it qualifies under the ATS. It has to be something like "genocide" or "torture" or "disappearing [someone]." The article suggests they were going to be tried for manslaughter, and I don't think that would support an ATS claim. Kidnapping, for example, is clearly a criminal offense, but it won't work. See Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain.

The article points out, however, that the families of the decedents are suing Blackwater, so there is potential civil liability. I wonder what their complaint alleges.

Cleo
 
This is the only kinda situation when I beleive extra-judicial punishment is justified; in fact, I would think Iraqis would be perfexctly justified in executing anyone belonging to Blackwater or any other PMC within the borders of their own country.
 
:lol:

There you go Forma, someone you can accruately accuse of hypocricy!

So let me get this straight: you are advocating for the murder of totally unrealated individuals including mechanics, medical personel and the like (a sizable portion of Xe serivices offered) based solely on a third party affilliation?

This place gets more and more entertaining... :popcorn:
 
Not really, the Iraqis have every right to exterminate the presence of terorrist forces within their own homeland.
 
The problem with an Alien Tort Statute claim would be finding a violation of "the law of nations or a treaty of the United States."

Indiscriminately firing on civilians is a violation of International Humanitarian Law, but I'm not sure it qualifies under the ATS. It has to be something like "genocide" or "torture" or "disappearing [someone]." The article suggests they were going to be tried for manslaughter, and I don't think that would support an ATS claim. Kidnapping, for example, is clearly a criminal offense, but it won't work. See Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain.

The article points out, however, that the families of the decedents are suing Blackwater, so there is potential civil liability. I wonder what their complaint alleges.

Cleo

I didn't know they had already filed suit (I missed that in the article, whoops) but it turns out they (among others in this consolidated case) are in fact basing their claim under the ATS (and RICO interestingly enough).

http://www.thenation.com/images/pdfs/ruling-20091022.pdf

The ATS, as far as I am aware, doesn't require crimes against humanity such as genocide, but can be used for less severe war crimes or universally recognized breaches of law or custom.

edit: link to story on the opinion: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091109/scahill
 
Frankly Patroklos, if Blackwater are over there machine-gunning civilians to death and getting off scot free, then whatever the legalities of it, I can't honestly say I give a flying fiddlesticks if Iraqis want to off them. They may not be legally culpable because of US law, but morally they are legitimate targets.
 
Thats because you are inconsistant. I am sorry to see the intentional and targeted attacking of noncombatants is justifiable to you? Can the US do that too?
 
Thats because you are inconsistant. I am sorry to see the intentional and targeted attacking of noncombatants is justifiable to you? Can the US do that too?

You couldn't care less when noncombatants get killed, once you can justify it to yourself by saying it was for military reasons. I've never seen any regret whatsoever from you about any non-western civilians being killed, only apologism and justification. you don't care and the idea that you will convince anyone that you do is laughable.

If you work for a mercenary company whose primary job is to kill people who resist the foreign army in your country (that doesnt justify the ends of those people), then you are a legitimate target. Dont like it? Dont take the risk. At least keep some vague semblance of honour and stick with the army.

Patroklos, you have posted waaaaaaay too many times here to now start pretending you care about civilian or noncombatan deaths. you care about American and american-allied deaths.

Funny thing is, I cant tell whether or not you are folling yourself, you may well be. But you arent fooling me, or, I suspect, anyone else.
 
Thats because you are inconsistant. I am sorry to see the intentional and targeted attacking of noncombatants is justifiable to you? Can the US do that too?

Any member of a PMC is inherently not a "noncombattant"
 
I am not sure why this is the Bush administrations fault. :confused:

I think it was immunity from prosecution for any actions
Of course there was the 6.6 Billion missing and the precedence of the Bush adminstrations non investigation, afaik no one has every been held accountable in any way for the massive fraud, corruption and criminal neglegence. Looking back though you can see how incompetent the post war was. How much is tolerateable under the "fog of war" ? What Iam basicly saying is that the conditions, planning for private security and the way it was handled help create the problem. No doubt the Iraqis also contributed thou ulitmately it was Bush administration going AGAINST the advice of Gen Mattis to go in and avenage the death of the slain private contractors in falluja and again AGAINST the advice of halting before a disarment agreement was in place.

Generally though the blame must rest on Rumsfield, Bush though seemed clueless and disconnected. As with hes I dont make any mistakes comment.
 
You couldn't care less when noncombatants get killed, once you can justify it to yourself by saying it was for military reasons.

Yeah, thats obviously why I consider things like the Dresen and Rotterdam bombings to be horribly unessecary actions :rolleyes:

There is not a single instance of me defending the existance of collateral damage that isn't sourced in well articulated and logical facts. You can disagree with me if you want, but we have seen time and time again that your standards for collateral damage mean that mondern conflict is impossible and that Western, controled and disciplined armies will forever be defeated by any faction willing to do its worst against civilians if you had your way.

Similarly, I suppose you consider the thousands (some estimate 30K) French civilians killed in the bombings leading up the D-Day to be unacceptable too, right? I mean we could have just not preped the battlefield and just compensated with more dead GIs on the beach, right? Well, you would if you had any logical consistancy in your position anyway.

I've never seen any regret whatsoever from you about any non-western civilians being killed, only apologism and justification. you don't care and the idea that you will convince anyone that you do is laughable.

Ooooo, look at the disgruntled little arim chair general. I guess the reason I don't care is why I personally put myself in danger to board dozens of dhow vessels throughout the Middle East exposing myself to danger of instant death from bombing instead of just machine gunning them all and letting God sort it out right?

You are out of your element RRW, your above accusation has no bearing in fact.

If you work for a mercenary company whose primary job is to kill people who resist the foreign army in your country (that doesnt justify the ends of those people), then you are a legitimate target. Dont like it? Dont take the risk. At least keep some vague semblance of honour and stick with the army.

1.) There is no sole function occupying Army in Iraq, and there hasn't been for awhile. It is a security forces sanctioned my the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED governemt of Iraq.

2.) Because of that there are no legitimate American targets in Iraq, any more than there were legitmate American targets in SK in 1955 of legitimate American targets in Japan or Germany in 1946.

Attacking an American soldier or civilian security offical (government employed or contractor) would be no different than killing the police/secuirty in an Irish courthouse/traffic stop/police station/school/or any other such location. It is illegal murder in EVERY instance.

3.) That last reality is not just because the Americans are legally sanctioned security forces, but also because THERE ARE NO LEGITIMATE ISSURGENT GROUPS IN IRAQ. Nor is any other armed group that takes up arms against the Iraqi government or its allies legitimate. You will probably quibble about this, but I would LOVE to hear you justify the existance of any of the factions fighting Iraqi forces and ALLIED elements in Iraq as legitmate.

4.) All the above is not really needed to point out the moral bankruptcy of your position, because blackwater employees are CIVILIANS. They are literally no different, in any way whatsoever, than security firms that provide guards for the banks/court houses/grocery stores/sporting events/or whatever right there in your Ireland. Sure they are armed a little different given the threats they face, but do you think the varuous civilian places like markets/shops/mosques in Iraq don't field their own similar security forces? Do you imagine Iraq concerns don't use Blackwater itself?

On top of that, in most cases and especially this one Blackwater is protecting CIVILIANS. Thats engineers, thats school teachers, thats diplomats, thats journelists, thats doctors, thats aid workers, thats food convoys, thats local government officials, the list goes on and on and on. And you know what, entities like the UN have been using civilian security FOR DECADES!!! None of these are legitimate targets EVER, and for the exact same reasons their Blackwater security are not legitimate targets.

But hey, thats cool. Obvioulsy you would find no moral failing in a person that ambushed a armored car at your bank killing all onboard because three years earlier, in an entire different city hundreds of miles a way one of your family memebers was killed in the crossfirewhile by one the same security firm's employees while DEFENDING HIMSELF form a MILITARY SCALE AMBUSH on INNOCENT CIVILIAN targets. You are advocating this EXACT same thing, congratulations.

Patroklos, you have posted waaaaaaay too many times here to now start pretending you care about civilian or noncombatan deaths. you care about American and american-allied deaths.

There is no basis to this accusation whatsoever, it is a defense mechanism you need to imagine you have some moral superiority.

The current conflicts are some of the least deadly in human history given the scale, yet you pretend we are the Mongul hordes or something.

I am sorry that you seem to think intentionally bombing civilian targets with the civilians being your primary TARGET is the same as the US military attacking rampent unrepentant war criminals flagrantly violating civilan protections in an effort to banish such people from being able to continually victimize populations. I am sorry about that because you are so utterly wrong in your thinking.

But hey, when you can show me an instance of the US intentionally bombing a crowded market without even the rumor of a legitimate target in sight with the intention of killing as many civilians as possible, you can pretend you have a point.

Funny thing is, I cant tell whether or not you are folling yourself, you may well be. But you arent fooling me, or, I suspect, anyone else.

Trust me RRW, given the heiness crimes you advocate above you are really not helping yourself here. Enjoy your infraction points :)
 
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