[NFP] Byzantium & Gaul Developer Livestream Discussion

[hhhhhh]

Well, glad to see that Statue of Zeus' free units is always a set amount and doesn't scale by current fielded units, so it's consistent and not weird like Civ 5's Terracotta Army Furthermore it looks like the production cost of the awarded units is higher than the production cost for the SoZ, so if one wanted all those units then SoZ is totally worth it.

Statue of Zeus = 268 production (taken from the given picture)

3 archers = 60 * 3 = 180 production
3 spearmen = 65 * 3 = 195 production
1 battering ram = 65 production

Production sum of previous units = 180 + 195 + 65 = 440 production

Edit: Even w/out spearmen included, the total production cost of the archers and the battering ram is 245, which still makes SoZ a really good deal.
Edit2: math is hard
Edit3: knowing how to game is harder See @DogeEnricoDandolo's response below.

But you can always produce those with policy, so 3 archer is about 120 production and 3 spearman is 130. Now that's 120 + 130 + 65 = 315. And you have to build an encampment (80-100 production) and a barrack (90 production) to make the wonder placement requirement.

Now do the math again.

 

[hhhhhh]

Oppidum tooltip

So a single quarry is actually +4? And two quarries = +6? That's strong.

 

[UWHabs]

Ah, my bad. I didn't realize that the production cost in the picture was shifted by game speed, thanks for the correction.

400 production does seem more reasonable sadly. And yeah I didn't include the cost of an Encampment + Barracks. That'd be an additional 90 for the rax and however much modified for the Encampment. Feeling a little more ambivalent about Statue of Zeus now...

It's not worth it direct, but if you were planning the encampment anyways and wanted the units, it makes some sense. It also pairs well if you shoehorn into Terracotta after Zeus since now all those units get an upgrade. But that's obviously a lot of production to spend early - as others have said, Zeus is definitely more about long-term anti-cav spam, or simply about having a wonder you can build early.

 

[bbbt]

Oppidum tooltip

Interesting, it looks like governor plaza will still provide it's bonus to Gaul's districts.

No green district IZ placement fun for gaul, but early production > later production anyways.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It's not worth it direct, but if you were planning the encampment anyways and wanted the units, it makes some sense. It also pairs well if you shoehorn into Terracotta after Zeus since now all those units get an upgrade. But that's obviously a lot of production to spend early - as others have said, Zeus is definitely more about long-term anti-cav spam, or simply about having a wonder you can build early.

And the 3 gold per turn should partially ameliorate the maintenance cost of those units. You wouldn't have that if you hard built them.

 

[hhhhhh]

How's no one mentioning this... Mandala State, Praetorian Guard, and Free Inquiry is buffed. (Campus now provides gold)

 

[leandrombraz]

It's not worth it direct, but if you were planning the encampment anyways and wanted the units, it makes some sense. It also pairs well if you shoehorn into Terracotta after Zeus since now all those units get an upgrade. But that's obviously a lot of production to spend early - as others have said, Zeus is definitely more about long-term anti-cav spam, or simply about having a wonder you can build early.

It's a strong wonder for the Zulu. Your encampment is cheaper and you're going to build it anyway, then the production for anti-cavalry will come in handy once you start spamming Impi units.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

So a single quarry is actually +4? And two quarries = +6? That's strong.

Nope, 2 per quarry.

And the 3 gold per turn should partially ameliorate the maintenance cost of those units. You wouldn't have that if you hard built them.

Not sure if the units are free or not, however, after they construct the SoZ, the gold per turn increases by 1.4, instead of decreasing.

 

[UWHabs]

It's a strong wonder for the Zulu. Your encampment is cheaper and you're going to build it anyway, then the production for anti-cavalry will come in handy once you start spamming Impi units.

Yeah, for Zulu it's an absolute must-build. For China anything in the era makes sense to build, and slightly shifts their take. Greece could make sense since you're going to want those spears anyways, but they're not really optimal for that early of an encampment. For pretty much anyone else, not sure if it really makes a lot of sense to aim for, since it would usually be cheaper to just slot in Agoge and hard-build the units.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Statue of Zeus' usefulness is largely based on In-Game Situation rather than a hard and fast 'Rule' - as with most things in the game. Would I prioritize building it in every game? No, because I don't play Domination that often and generally prefer armies of promoted Melee/Mounted units and ranged units rather than Anti-Cav.
But:
If I'm playing almost anybody and find myself sandwiched between Genghis and Shaka, it becomes a Must Have for me, both to keep Shaka from building it and to give me some extra defense against Genghis' Mounted Minions of Mayhem, because I know as sure as anything that those two will be coming for me, either together or one after the other.

And, of course, many of the Civs that have early UUs will not bother with it, because their UU is not ranged or Anti-Cav: Monty's Aztecs will rarely find a reason to go for the Zeusian Statue, because Eagle Warriors with a few Luxury goods are better than what they'd get from the Statue. Genghis, of course, will always prefer mounted units - in fact, I don't think I've ever seen an Anti-Cav unit built by AI Genghis in the first half of the game, but that may be faulty memory on my part - but, bottom line, Anti-Cav are not his 'go-to' class of unit by any means. Trajan is another: Rome almost always goes for a bunch of Warriors - Legions and rarely bothers with Spearmen, so SoZ will probably be a rare build for the Roman AI also.

It will be interesting to see how often the Zeuser gets prioritized by the AI, but I suspect it will not be as often as everybody thought at first glance.

Other than Gorgo, of course, who is both fairly militant and has an early UU Anti-Cav unit, so has virtually no reason not to prioritize it, with Pericles right behind her: shame we can't have both in the same game and just sit back and watch them race each other for it!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And, of course, many of the Civs that have early UUs will not bother with it, because their UU is not ranged or Anti-Cav: Monty's Aztecs will rarely find a reason to go for the Zeusian Statue, because Eagle Warriors with a few Luxury goods are better than what they'd get from the Statue. Genghis, of course, will always prefer mounted units - in fact, I don't think I've ever seen an Anti-Cav unit built by AI Genghis in the first half of the game, but that may be faulty memory on my part - but, bottom line, Anti-Cav are not his 'go-to' class of unit by any means. Trajan is another: Rome almost always goes for a bunch of Warriors - Legions and rarely bothers with Spearmen, so SoZ will probably be a rare build for the Roman AI also.

It requires Barracks to build so unless Genghis builds barracks over his unique stable replacement, I'm sure he won't gun for it.

 

[8housesofelixir]

How's no one mentioning this... Mandala State, Praetorian Guard, and Free Inquiry is buffed. (Campus now provides gold)

Praetorian Guard was shown in the Dramatic Age reveal video, but Mandala State and buffed Free Inquiry is new. Free Inquiry is now very good, not just good for coastal/CH based civs.

"Mandala State" is to describe a common political model/structure existed in Medieval South East Asia, whereas the rule of Khmer (Angkor, to be precise) and Majapahit all belong to this model. I assume @Andrew Johnson [FXS] is behind the design of this particular card.

On the other hand, IIRC, the Mandala model is a decentralized political model, in which the further away from your capital the less control you have over local lords, so I'm not sure the effect of this card really matches IRL Mandala states (unless, to think it the other way, the capitals were "projecting" their power to surrounding areas).

 

[8housesofelixir]

Trajan is another: Rome almost always goes for a bunch of Warriors - Legions and rarely bothers with Spearmen, so SoZ will probably be a rare build for the Roman AI also.

I don't think AI have the intelligence of "I don't really care X so I will not build this wonder that buffs X". Golden Gate Bridge is a perfect example.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't think AI have the intelligence of "I don't really care X so I will not build this wonder that buffs X". Golden Gate Bridge is a perfect example.

You mean to tell me that the AI that will build Petra in a single-tile desert or Huey Teocalli in the only lake tile in its empire doesn't logically analyze the benefit it will gain from a wonder?

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

That "you've caused grievances to another civilization" message on denouncements is still making me want to quit with a facepalm (the game or in that case the stream) each time I see it.

It really should be civ-specific, not tiers-generic, I mean someone should denounce you because you've caused grievances to them (by attacking an allied/friend for example) but not because you've caused "an (undetermined level) of grievances" to someone else.

You would say that! (Denounces You)
(They just plain don't like you)

 

[Inhalaattori]

Statue of Zeus is very good wonder for Greece, Zulu, Gaul, Macedon and Sweden. Gaul gets culture from those units, Macedon get science from those units and other Civs mentioned have anti-cav UU. As any other Civ it can be situationally useful. For example if you are being attacked by Mongols, Scythia or Byzantium.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Statue of Zeus construction animation

Spoiler :

And, a little better look at the tooltip from the faded one posted earlier.

 

[Gedemon]

You would say that! (Denounces You)
(They just plain don't like you)

Can't wait for a British diplomacy mode, aka "Nations do not have permanent friends or enemies, only interests"

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I'll watch this Stream just to find out if Istanbul really can be Constantinople.

 

[Guynemer]

You mean to tell me that the AI that will build Petra in a single-tile desert or Huey Teocalli in the only lake tile in its empire doesn't logically analyze the benefit it will gain from a wonder?

My head canon is that the AI does that purely to spite me, and tempt me into war.

It usually works!