C2C Balance Thread

[JosEPh_II]

@Is612,
I've just encountered a CTD @ 509BC that so far I can't get around. I updated to SVN version 2459 and have all kinds of weird disappearing and reappearing units and now this CTD.

I think I'll revert back to the previous version and see if I can continue from there.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@Is612,
I've just encountered a CTD @ 509BC that so far I can't get around. I updated to SVN version 2459 and have all kinds of weird disappearing and reappearing units and now this CTD.

I think I'll revert back to the previous version and see if I can continue from there.

JosEPh

Yeah, Koshling added a major Dynamic Unit graphic processing system that caused all sorts of problems. If you update to the newest revision it should fix the disappearing units and the CTD, but if it doesn't, then post the minidump on the Bugs thread.

Thanks again for being so helpful in the ongoing balance testing.

 

[Epona222]

Sorry for the double post, but this is kinda important.

With BlueGenie's help I figured how to use the BBAI techcost tag, and so have made MAJOR changes to the tech progression by era. It is as follows:

Prehistoric: 100% time to research things (same as before).
Ancient: 150% time to research things.
Classical: 200% time to research things.
Medieval: 200% time to research things.
Rennaisance: 250% time to research things.
Industrial: 300% time to research things.
Modern: 400% time to research things.
Transhuman: 400% time to research things.
Galactic: 500% time to research things.

I would appreciate feedback on this change, as it is pretty huge, and it is still subject to change.

Last time this was tweaked, it led to negative beakers per turn once you hit the industrial era. Has that now been fixed (I understand it was something that could be resolved in the DLL)? I'd hate to see the same bug happen again! Until someone can reassure me that it has been fixed, I will keep my research era % at the default, my hair is only just growing back after I tore it out in frustration last time someone changed those percentages!!!! Edit to add: see pages 171/172 of the Caveman2Cosmos ideas/discussion thread for details of the previous issue - if it has been fixed, please ignore my worries and reassure me! Ta.

 

[AIAndy]

Last time this was tweaked, it led to negative beakers per turn once you hit the industrial era. Has that now been fixed (I understand it was something that could be resolved in the DLL)? I'd hate to see the same bug happen again! Until someone can reassure me that it has been fixed, I will keep my research era % at the default, my hair is only just growing back after I tore it out in frustration last time someone changed those percentages!!!! Edit to add: see pages 171/172 of the Caveman2Cosmos ideas/discussion thread for details of the previous issue - if it has been fixed, please ignore my worries and reassure me! Ta.

If it happens, we will fix it in the DLL with a savegame. Those problems tend to happen from integer overflow (for accuracy reasons you tend to multiply first and then divide which means large numbers that might overflow in between).

 

[Epona222]

If it happens, we will fix it in the DLL with a savegame. Those problems tend to happen from integer overflow (for accuracy reasons you tend to multiply first and then divide which means large numbers that might overflow in between).

Thanks for the response, yes iirc it was integer overflow that caused problems last time. I am about to update from the SVN and I am just about to hit the industrial era, if I experience similar issues as last time I will let you know!

On a different note, has flammability now been implemented in the SVN? I last updated about a week ago and just want to know whether I need to build -flammability buildings before updating my copy to avoid my empire burning to the ground

 

[Hydromancerx]

Flammability has been in the mod longer than Crime has. Unlike crime, flammability doesn't create pseudo-buildings but triggers fire events. However with so many other events I am not sure how well it works.

 

[Epona222]

Flammability has been in the mod longer than Crime has. Unlike crime, flammability doesn't create pseudo-buildings but triggers fire events. However with so many other events I am not sure how well it works.

Seriously? I am in the late renaissance and about to go to industrial era and have only had 1 fire event (your forge has burnt down type event, I have enough money in my treasury to just rebuild the forge without even noticing any major impact) and have been ignoring flammability completely, I certainly haven't built much in the way of -flammability stuff, but my empire is stuffed full of forges, foundries, alchemists labs etc. If it's been fully implemented then it's not really very noticeable compared to the crime stuff (which is a major pain in the you know what, I am enjoying the challenge however!) I'm a little disappointed if that is the case for flammability, sorry. I would appreciate it more if it were a real threat, it doesn't appear to be at the moment. Also the properties display for flammability always shows 0 in the +/- per turn column, so I guess it works in a different way to crime which never seems to be static?

 

[AIAndy]

Seriously? I am in the late renaissance and about to go to industrial era and have only had 1 fire event (your forge has burnt down type event, I have enough money in my treasury to just rebuild the forge without even noticing any major impact) and have been ignoring flammability completely, I certainly haven't built much in the way of -flammability stuff, but my empire is stuffed full of forges, foundries, alchemists labs etc. If it's been fully implemented then it's not really very noticeable compared to the crime stuff (which is a major pain in the you know what, I am enjoying the challenge however!) I'm a little disappointed if that is the case for flammability, sorry. I would appreciate it more if it were a real threat, it doesn't appear to be at the moment. Also the properties display for flammability always shows 0 in the +/- per turn column, so I guess it works in a different way to crime which never seems to be static?

Yes, flammability does not accumulate over time. Instead it just depends on the buildings you currently have in the city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Flammability has been in the mod longer than Crime has. Unlike crime, flammability doesn't create pseudo-buildings but triggers fire events. However with so many other events I am not sure how well it works.

So That's why I had that apprentice flogged! Again and again, he just never learned!

JosEPh

 

[Sgtslick]

funny

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Is612,

Entered Ren Era @ 344BC, ~ turn 655. Years/turn have been off since Classical imho.

Before the Epic changes I thought the early Eras matched the Date fairly well. It was when I would hit late Medieval that the years/turn got out of synch with what was going on game wise. The years went by too fast because the # of years that made up a turn was to many. Ren Era in the old Epic was 6 years per turn which was eating the timeline up too fast.

With the New Epic the Medieval Era was only 5 years per turn (not enough years per turn to keep the date/era even close to what would be expected). So the progression of years is too slow in the early Eras now, it eats too many years per turn early (1st 3 eras) and not enough years per turn by Medieval and Ren.

I'm betting I'll hit Industrial by ~400AD.

Side topics: Why is Ice cream parlor available in Medieval Era?
: Why doesn't Seminary reduce Crime?

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Side topics: Why is Ice cream parlor available in Medieval Era?

There has been ice cream since the ancient era. The Roman Emperor Nero had ice brought from the mountains and combined it with fruit toppings. However there was never really a good fit in the ancient era.

It was not until the 18th-century that there was true ice cream. Thus I compromised at set it at invention where they could have the technology to make a hand crank ice cream maker.

In short I am unsure where it would go in the 18th-century or Ancient Era. Thus I put it at Invention.

 

[T C]

reposting this from the GEM thread as it's really balance related.

I think for those who are finding it too easy, start on deity. Giving the AI two cities enables them to compete a lot better. In my current game, I'm behind still in the ancient era and I haven't even built a single wonder. It's shaping up to be a challenging game, although I am catching up fast.

I certainly agree that happiness, and health too, come far too easy, too many buildings give them to the point where they are not a concern. There is also too much gold, the science slider is redundant in my game. I think we need somethings to balance all the buildings that have been added to prehistoric recently.

In addition, I have noticed that in my last two games, the AI does not proritize atl-atl making at all, civilisations are choosing to get to sedentary lifestyle and even megafuna domestication before atl-atl making. I had the Hittites, who I had been severly beating for 1000s of years having bear raiders before atl-atls. This gives the human player a massive advantage in war and for a long time as well. I think also that there needs to be another unit to counter the atl-atl. At the moment they are unstopable.

Has anyone noitced this, or is it just happening with me?

 

[Koshling]

reposting this from the GEM thread as it's really balance related.



In addition, I have noticed that in my last two games, the AI does not proritize atl-atl making at all, civilisations are choosing to get to sedentary lifestyle and even megafuna domestication before atl-atl making. I had the Hittites, who I had been severly beating for 1000s of years having bear raiders before atl-atls. This gives the human player a massive advantage in war and for a long time as well. I think also that there needs to be another unit to counter the atl-atl. At the moment they are unstopable.

Has anyone noitced this, or is it just happening with me?

Yup, I noticed it too. I'll do something about it at some point.

 

[Sgtslick]

Rangers seem to do well against atl-atl if you catch them outside of cities, particularly if you for example you have forest promotions and they are on a forest square they are 95% win ez.

 

[ls612]

@Is612,

Entered Ren Era @ 344BC, ~ turn 655. Years/turn have been off since Classical imho.

Before the Epic changes I thought the early Eras matched the Date fairly well. It was when I would hit late Medieval that the years/turn got out of synch with what was going on game wise. The years went by too fast because the # of years that made up a turn was to many. Ren Era in the old Epic was 6 years per turn which was eating the timeline up too fast.

With the New Epic the Medieval Era was only 5 years per turn (not enough years per turn to keep the date/era even close to what would be expected). So the progression of years is too slow in the early Eras now, it eats too many years per turn early (1st 3 eras) and not enough years per turn by Medieval and Ren.

I'm betting I'll hit Industrial by ~400AD.

Side topics: Why is Ice cream parlor available in Medieval Era?
: Why doesn't Seminary reduce Crime?

JosEPh

The problem is that in my changes, I didn't realize that Ancient and Classical, but especially Medieval, had so few techs, never having bothered to count them.

Medieval has 36 techs over the course of, in my plans, 400-ish turns, while Prehistoric has 88 techs over 288 turns, and Renaissance has 56 over the same number of turns as medieval! I have some things planned to help this, but those will have to wait till after the Freeze, as they may be fairly wide-reaching. Thanks as always for the feedback.

 

[BlueGenie]

Feedback for ls612: Giant Eternity map, roughly 1015 turns until Ancient Era, or around 3900BC.
So far pretty good. Well, apart from 1k turns, though that might be different with Nomad start, we'll have to see once the kinks have been ironed out there.
Research times are longer on larger maps though so with the same settings on a Huge or smaller map it would have been earlier.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

Feedback for ls612: Giant Eternity map, roughly 1015 turns until Ancient Era, or around 3900BC.
So far pretty good. Well, apart from 1k turns, though that might be different with Nomad start, we'll have to see once the kinks have been ironed out there.
Research times are longer on larger maps though so with the same settings on a Huge or smaller map it would have been earlier.

Cheers

Thanks for the feedback BG. I am currently working on fixing up some of the later eras, specifically Classical and Medieval, so that the progression is better for them, as part of a wide ranging overhaul, based on feedback from you, JosEPh, and others. I am not really going to touch Prehistoric for a while, as I do not know what effect the Nomad start is going to have on things then.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Got Arqebuistier (sp?) and Nationalism (canon forge) around 290BC. I have updated to Rev 2541 as well.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Thanks for the feedback BG. I am currently working on fixing up some of the later eras, specifically Classical and Medieval, so that the progression is better for them, as part of a wide ranging overhaul, based on feedback from you, JosEPh, and others. I am not really going to touch Prehistoric for a while, as I do not know what effect the Nomad start is going to have on things then.

Eternity, GEM. 1545 BC, about half way through classical. Probably a bit ahead of schedule, but I'm the runaway leader in this game despite playing on immortal start with increasing difficulty (Persia was a crazy easy starting position). Also I started this about a wek before V23 when the AI wasn't hunting well, so a opure V23 would likely be slightly slower.