C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[CIVPlayer8]

I have always said that that category (Immigration/Border Security) is a waste of space. If it were possible I would start with something like the following (names need work).

1) Anyone can go anywhere without declaring war.

2) "This land is mine" - can't enter worked tiles without declaring war. Requires Trade language tech or Warfare whichever is later. +1 happy with all nations

3) "National Borders - Land" - can't enter land cultural area without declaring war. Can still enter sea areas. Enables Right of Passage. requires Ideograms or other early diplomacy/writing tech

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Well, in the prehistoric era, everyone is at war with everyone, so doesn't that kinda reflect this?

Why is there so many Civics with /X% Tax rate? And Really??? per 10% Tax Rate?

Despotism is now a better Civic than Republic or Democracy.

Too many Civic categories with too much overlap. Once you hit the 2nd or 3rd Civic in each category it does not pay to advance.

And all the discussion, debate, and compromise over Intolerant vs Atheism went right out the window. I feel totally betrayed over this blatantly biased old crap again!

Overall this is not an improvement over the last 2 sets. Just different for the sake of being different.

Only bright spot is now Slavery is not a Civic.

I give this set a grade of C-.

JosEPh

In hindsight, I agree with you on the 10% tax thing. How much tax do you usually run? I don't think it should be much lower than 20% though. Also, I haven't gotten to the Religious civics yet. I'm working on Power/Rule, and then I'll move onto Religion. I haven't changed anything in the Religion category, so it didn't really happen "again". And you really don't think my recent updates have improved? So many of the civics have had their "fluff" taken away. The Government Civics should have the most "direction" out of all the categories, so I'm sorry if you think they "overlap".

@CIVPlayer8

In an attempt to get rid of redundant icon/buttons, here are some new icon/buttons for various civics. Included are ...

- Skilled Labor [Labor]
- Digital [Currency]
- Credit [Currency]
- Gold Standard [Currency]
- Coinage [Currency]
- No Currency [Currency]
- Cloning [Military]
- Unmanned Warfare [Military]
- Digital Warfare [Military]

Enjoy!

Thanks for these new buttons Hydro, you're the bomb!

Geez Joseph, try and be a bit more supportive and constructive can you, its not like CIVPlayer8 is your employee or something..

I appreciate your concern Sgtslick, but he's just voicing his concerns. Its what I want from you guys.

When agreements and consensus are reached they should be adhered to. Tax rates, WW and Intolerant/Atheism science conflict were ALL discussed, debated and agreed upon. Now they have been Totally and completely reneged on. Complete reversal and actually more divisive than before.

Why do I have to be quiet about that? Or supportive for that matter when it's in direct conflict with prior agreements?

It's been turned all around 180* Again! We are back to a set that was no better than the set before Eldrinfal made his. With one exception....much much more conflicting and confusing Civic categories and entries in those categories.

You don't like my criticism? Guess what too bad.

JosEPh

Well, to be fair, I have been reducing War to below 25% for the civics I've touched, and the Religion category is yet to receive its "update".

Why do the civics have to be this complicated?

Which ones are you referring to? And when you say "simple", do you mean "vanilla simple"?

I think that is not nearly as big of a problem as is in the game now. In my game I've had almost all of my cities above 20 . So I am not too concerned about this. I actually feel that this setup is better than the previous one in terms of giving gold. But that is just my opinion, maybe if things go downhill I'll make a Civic option in addition to a Trait option.

Well, yes. Decreased maintenance have given more . Also, what do you mean "Civic Option"?

About Open/Close borders
In my actual game EVERYONE choose Open Borders... They dont like Close Borders?

Yes, this is many games. But it is also realistic. I can't think of many ancient civilizations who adopted "Closed Borders". China/Japan, but not many, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There are 2 sets of Civic categories that have /Tax Rate. So 10% in any Group is compounded by the other set. Even 20% can be a compounded problem. Switching to a supposedly better Civic and getting a possible 10 hammer (100% rate) thrown in the works is crippling. Will the AI do it? Has anyone checked? And how well does REV handle it?

But hey, there are ppl ing that there is not enough in the Mod. Of course it just Has to go Overboard 1st that's just the "Way It's Done". Argued for Incremental changes for years now. I'm past blue in the face over this aspect.

Didn't realize that the Religion section was not addressed yet. So I have to hold off on that and wait see.

But still Despot is a better Gov't Civic than Monarchy, Republic, and Democracy ( I have not researched Federal yet but it shares the same problem(s)).

Power Civics should not have /Tax Rate % modifiers at all imho. Eliminate them and the Gov't Civics become more palatable and user friendly (AI and player).

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

But hey, there are ppl ing that there is not enough in the Mod. Of course it just Has to go Overboard 1st that's just the "Way It's Done". Argued for Incremental changes for years now. I'm past blue in the face over this aspect.

Power Civics should not have /Tax Rate % modifiers at all imho. Eliminate them and the Gov't Civics become more playable and user friendly (AI and player).

JosEPh

I am not one of those, i dont like it, and i agree with you on the 2nd para.

 

[Koshling]

Game balance > reality modeling, but for what it's worth I would say that the more democratic/inclusive you society is the LESS unhappiness you should get for a given tax rate, because the people are part of the decision making process that leads to the higher taxes. No taxation withOUT representation and all that!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well, in the prehistoric era, everyone is at war with everyone, so doesn't that kinda reflect this?

Only if you "Start as Minors" otherwise you are at peace with every one. Personally I don't see how you can be at war with others if you don't have the warfare tech. In my games I don't see wars breaking out with anyone until around sedentary lifestyle.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Only if you "Start as Minors" otherwise you are at peace with every one. Personally I don't see how you can be at war with others if you don't have the warfare tech. In my games I don't see wars breaking out with anyone until around sedentary lifestyle.

I see it the opposite. How can you be at peace until you can communicate with other civs? If you cannot conduct diplomacy then there can be no peace and everyone is a possible threat.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Until you have excess population, you can't afford a war. Loose a few people and your tribe goes extinct.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I agree with DH.

JosEPh

 

[gunburned]

Just curious about how defensive values are set inside cities. I've been presently playing a game and started to fall behind in tech. Upon having war declared I've trained about 20 catapults only to see that the bombard city doesn't reduce the defense of the city even 1%! Now my question is: in future updates will this be changed at all? Or is this working as intended, because surely I should inflict a minimum of 1%. I think the bombard defense values of the cities are too high or perhaps the catapults are too low

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree with DH.

JosEPh

Then don't use minor civs option. I personally love minor civ option.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Then don't use minor civs option. I personally love minor civ option.

Are you saying that the Borders civics should only be showing if you play with the game option minor civs

 

[Hydromancerx]

Are you saying that the Borders civics should only be showing if you play with the game option minor civs

No. They are unrelated. Immigration civic is a whole other issue. Likewise Diplomacy of "Open Borders" and "Right of Passage" are different as well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The discussion we were having was about the Immigration civic and how to extend it back in time before 1960!

 

[ls612]

The discussion we were having was about the Immigration civic and how to extend it back in time before 1960!

Before 1900 or so getting from point a to point b was far harder, so there was far less immigration, at least in the modern sense. If we want to talk about invasions and nomad hordes that is another discussion entirely.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I would have thought that someone living in the Americas would understand about the huge migrations of the 1700-1800's and not just the gold rushes. The invasions happened then the immigrants followed soon after. Heck, even the ancient Romans had a policy of settling immigrants in their conquered territories so as to make them Roman. Immigration happens within your nation, between your nation and its colonies or vassals and between nations. The current Immigration civics only look at the modern world view of immigration.

 

[ls612]

I would have thought that someone living in the Americas would understand about the huge migrations of the 1700-1800's and not just the gold rushes. The invasions happened then the immigrants followed soon after. Heck, even the ancient Romans had a policy of settling immigrants in their conquered territories so as to make them Roman. Immigration happens within your nation, between your nation and its colonies or vassals and between nations. The current Immigration civics only look at the modern world view of immigration.

Colonization and immigration are in my mind to separate, though related things.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Then don't use minor civs option. I personally love minor civ option.

Which is what I generally do. But you want Everyone to live by the Start as Minor mindset. That's myopic and unbalanced for Civic use.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Which is what I generally do. But you want Everyone to live by the Start as Minor mindset. That's myopic and unbalanced for Civic use.

JosEPh

People can choose if they want to have the option checked off or not. As I said before Minor civ is completely separate from the Immigration Civic and the Diplomacy that deals with what units you let in.

Are you suggesting we have a 3rd option that is like minor civs that make everyone at peace until a later tech? Because I would have no problem with a 3rd choice if you and DH want that. However I have no idea how to mod that myself. So someone else with those skills would have to do it.

 

[Mouthwash]

I would not find it particularly fun if Start as Minors was altered... it's balanced the way it is.

 

[Thunderbrd]

People can choose if they want to have the option checked off or not. As I said before Minor civ is completely separate from the Immigration Civic and the Diplomacy that deals with what units you let in.

Are you suggesting we have a 3rd option that is like minor civs that make everyone at peace until a later tech? Because I would have no problem with a 3rd choice if you and DH want that. However I have no idea how to mod that myself. So someone else with those skills would have to do it.

I could do that theoretically but I'd not be greatly motivated to. The question would be more, if we implement something that operates off the civic system, would minor civs be able to override it? (not a big fan of minor civs but I can understand those who are...)