[GS] Canada Discussion Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

I wonder how the "Are you massing troops on my border?" interaction works with Canada since surprise wars aren't allowed.

 

[Scaramanga]

I wonder how the "Are you massing troops on my border?" interaction works with Canada since surprise wars aren't allowed.

Promise to leave or ignore I guess.

 

[Jkchart]

I wonder how the "Are you massing troops on my border?" interaction works with Canada since surprise wars aren't allowed.

I hadn't even thought of that.

 

[Siptah]

I wonder how the "Are you massing troops on my border?" interaction works with Canada since surprise wars aren't allowed.

Shhh. That's the secret backdoor to declare surprise wars with Canada.

 

[Disgustipated]

If they were going stereotypical, I think I would have done a lot more with the mounties personally. They're a police force, not an army unit. I think having them found national parks is genius, but I would also maybe give them some crazy abilities, like cannot attack units in foreign territory, and when garrisoned in a city or a national park, they provide 1 amenity. If we're going to have a civ that can't declare war, then why not give us a unit that can't attack as well.

I would have liked to have seen this. It's like they are afraid to have a police unit. SMAC had units that you could use as police. While there is no crime or corruption mechanic, it would have to be represented with amenities. Which would double up with the hockey rink bonuses. But I would still have that over the combat abilities. I think Firaxis didn't want to gimp their military strength, and is afraid to have a uu that is non-combat.

Overall I think the hate here in this thread is overblown.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Promise to leave or ignore I guess.

Or maybe Laurier will offer you aid if you loiter near his borders.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I know some people are frowning on it but I do think the ice rink is just fine as a representation of culture spread. You know the hockey you see in other countries? That's a little bit of Canadian cultural influence rubbing off there. There is no denying that. I see it as about the same thing as baseball fields in Japan or SA or the Caribbean are for the US.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Amassing Troops counts as a Formal War. it's not really a Surprise if they catch you do it.

 

[Saltcreek]

I think people are harshly underestimating the power of Canada as both the player and an AI leader.

Let's break down their bonuwses

- They are the ONLY direct civ who can SURVIVE and GROW in Tundra, Russia can't do it, they don't get a Food bonus big enough to handle a large population in Tundra cities, because there's very rarely enough sources of food for Russian cities to grow without outside sources like imports (Trade Routes), not to mention the lack of general housing. Canada can build FARMS on Tundra, now only giving them +2 (which sadly does reduce other yields) but can grow quite big steadily, on top of the fact that 2 Farms provide +1 Housing overall, this means that Canada can live off Tundra and stay there, because AI Will rarely settle those tiles since they don't provide much room for growth unless they are surrounded with enough yields

On tpop of that, Canada are basically immune from wars, because why on earth would I take a Canadian city if there's nothing it would provide me, depending on whether or not the Farms are destroyed, but even if they stay, no one can build more, so if you jus tsteadily add more farms as Lautier, the AI that conquers you rcities will be stuck with whatever Canada built.

On top of that, if I recall, I've had plenty of National Parks (and keep in mind you can build more and get other sources of Appeal) to boost the chance that there will be plenty of space for National Parks, on top of the fact that Canada won't rely on FAITH to get those National Parks (in come the Mounties), meaning that they can get A LOT of Tourism from that alone

Not to mention that the HOCKEY RINKS ARE A SUPER-PUMPED THEATRE SQUARES. Anytime I picked up Desert Folklore or Dance of Aurora my Holy Sites would SWIM in Faith, and while you can't get double the Culture, there's plenty of sources of Tourism through there (doesn't the Cultural Heritage or Conservation yhield Tourism from Culture-based improvements equal to the Culture output?)

Hockey Rinks are likelky to yield +6 Culture per city, that's SIX culture per City, since they get +1 Culture per every adjacent Tundra tile.

The Canada are like the perfect Turle civ, they can live off in far away Northern/Southern hemispheres wihtou the worry of conflict, turtle up and grow, become a steady rival in Diplomatic and Cultural victory (two victories that are likely passive) and snatch, they are in my eyes a very dangerous civ to go up against, since their cities will yield nothing useful for you.

I mean sure they may be bit stereotypical, but if you take away the entirety of their representation and just look at the bonuses enough I think they are quite impressive.

Russia is better in the tundra than Canada. Lavra, religion, feed the world and you are sorted. A +2 tundra farm is not going to grow your city at a fast rate, it will be quite slow. Canadian cities will be bad when compared to other civ cities so I guess are right there - no one will want their land.

National parks and ice rinks are fairly late game so the value you get from them will probably be low. I may be wrong on this but late game bonuses only work if you have a way to get there quicker and Canada does not have any early game bonuses. I am not sure how you are going to win a culture victory when Russia/Greece can do this earlier and much easier.

 

[Aristos]

Culture from hockey rinks???

 

[frubox]

On one hand, it's irritatingly stereotypical. Like, demonstrative of a total lack of research.

On the other hand, it does appear fun to play.

Tundra Scots is right.

Are Mounties a real thing? if yes, Are they universally recognized as essentially Canadian?

Are there many ice hockey rinks in Canada? is Ice Hockey the national sport?

Is there a lot of snow in Canada?

Are there a lot of national parks in Canada?

Is Canada a traditionally neutral and peaceful country?

If the answer to all of these questions is yes (spoiler alert, it is) then your point and that of others like you is clearly motivated by whatever issue you got with this civ being in the game in the first place. Lack of research...lmao

 

[darkace77450]

I think people are harshly underestimating the power of Canada as both the player and an AI leader.

I think you're conflating "powerful" and "interesting". Personally speaking, they might be the most powerful Civ in the game, but if they're rolling with cliches like Hockey Rinks then I'm not going to be terribly interested in playing them.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

You still have no incentive to build a tundra city early game when there are not bonuses outside the strats. Low pop cities will competing for theatre, campus, and commercial districts. If you have no way to accelerate yourself to the late game then late game abilities are pointless. Why play a tundra civ like Canada when Russia is just better in every way?

That tundra farm bonus is rubbish. Tundra still sucks, at 1 food and nothing else. If this is not changed, then Canada will only settle in tundra once they have ice hockey rinks and want to take all the oil and uranium.

A much better bonus would be: Tundra tiles are treated as plains.

You'll have to have good terrain on the border of the tundra, I think, then expand into the tundra later in the game.

Wow. I feel like they've combined the boringness of America with the stereotyped portrayal of Scotland, but without the epic stool kick or Teddy's theatricality.

We haven't seen Laurier mad yet. Maybe he gets … very disappointed with you?

It’s about time that our 51st state got its own Civ!

I figure the first thought of 90% of casual American gamers will be "Cool! Canada. Can't wait to turn them into our 51st state."

I feel obligated to post this video:

Is it bad that I wanted to march over to the food truck that sold the little boy his poutine and demand an explanation for why they're serving gravy that's not hot enough to melt the cheese curds?

 

[Zaarin]

This is the content I come here for.

Btw: any things you like about this? @Siptah felt like you'd like the immunity to surprise wars (I agree).

I'm actually not a fan of the immunity to surprise wars because it doesn't make sense and it doesn't have anything to balance it out (for example, the Maori get some potent bonuses, but they get less land and start late--Canada just gets immunity to surprise wars with no offset). If I had to point to one thing I did like, it would be that they get extra favor for participating in emergencies. That feels less stereotyped and more appropriate. I also appreciate that it sounded like Laurier was speaking French; the last thing we need in the game is another Anglophone.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I think you're conflating "powerful" and "interesting". Personally speaking, they might be the most powerful Civ in the game, but if they're rolling with cliches like Hockey Rinks then I'm not going to be terribly interested in playing them.

But you're attaching "interesting" purely because they're Canada.

Remove any references to real life Civ for any civ and the power shifts.

People are harbouring on their "representation" in a game about anything but real life accuracy. Gandhi drops nukes, Washington lived in 400 B.C, and the Pyramids were built in China.

 

[AriochIV]

A hockey rink provides... Production?? What exactly is it producing?

Canada will be IMMUNE to attack unless you have a casus belli? WHAT?

The unique unit can create a National Park... which is impossible to create in 95% of games?

And here we thought the Canadian traits would be silly, stupid, or useless. Shame on us.

 

[pgm123]

For 4000 BC perhaps, but the in-game Ancient Era, if we take the Greek definition, lasts to around 600 BC. There are a great many leaders we could choose before then, particularly for Egypt, Nubia, Babylon, Assyria, etc.

So the game starts Classical at 1000 BCE. I think it's too early, but Iron is a Classical Tech and that started around then. Bronze is too late and should be re-named to something else (perhaps armor?)

Wow. I feel like they've combined the boringness of America with the stereotyped portrayal of Scotland, but without the epic stool kick or Teddy's theatricality. All that's missing is maple syrup and bacon.

Well, we haven't seen the Diplomatic Gifts yet.

 

[thecrazyscot]

All right, I've had some time to get over my initial reaction and look at this design more objectively. Setting aside my personal feelings of "lameness" which haven't entirely gone away, I think there are some very well designed and powerful abilities here.

Unique Ability – Four Faces of Peace
This ability prevents Canada from declaring surprise wars on opponents or declaring war on City-States, but also ensures that surprise wars can’t be declared against Canada. Grants bonus Diplomatic Favor based on per-turn Tourism, and Canada receives extra Diplomatic Favor from successfully completing Emergencies or Scored Competitions.

This ability is fantastic for a player who prefers a builder play-style, by protecting against wars you're not prepared for. This means that you have, at minimum, 5 turns to rush some troops into position, so you should never be caught flat-footed. Note, though, that just because they are immune to Surprise Wars does not mean that they are immune to Joint Wars or to being the target of an Emergency, which can provide civs a free DOW (of course this means that Canada can "surprise" DOW someone else who is the target of an Emergency as well).

The bonus Favor is nice, but won't come into effect until later in the game. Unless, that is, you start grabbing GW early on, then you might be able to start racking up some extra favor within a couple eras from the start. With Favor being something you can both use to manipulate the World Congress and something you can trade to other civs, this gives Canada potentially some very effective ways to play the diplomatic game (for instance, you could veto an Emergency vs yourself...), even if not pursuing a diplomatic victory.

Unique Building – Ice Hockey Rink
Ice Hockey Rinks grant additional Appeal and Amenity, and bonus Culture for each adjacent Snow, Snow Hills, Tundra, and Tundra Hills tile. Once the Flight technology is unlocked, grants Tourism from Culture; after unlocking the Professional Sports Civic, awards additional Production and Food; and, if built adjacent to a Stadium building, grants even more Culture. Only one Ice Hockey Rink allowed within a city’s borders.

This is a VERY powerful improvement, actually. If you plop it down completely surrounded by snow/tundra, that's a base yield of +6 Culture, which corresponds to +6 Tourism after Flight. Add in extra Culture (and Tourism) if next to a Stadium, bonus Production and Food after Professional Sports, an Amenity, and buffing adjacent tile Appeal (which is likely to already be fairly high since Tundra and Snow tend to have higher Appeal)...you get the picture. We're going to be getting ~10+ yields from a single improvement, which will be especially nice since tundra cities will tend to have fewer citizens to work tiles (even with tundra farms).

The kicker is that it doesn't really come into its full potential until pretty late in the game, but that +6 Culture should help rocket down the Civic tree pretty quickly.

Unique Unit – Mountie
This modern era unit has the ability to create a National Park. Mounties receive combat bonuses when fighting near a National Park, and an additional combat bonus if the National Park is owned by Canada.

Being able to buy a National Park with gold is a tremendous advantage, which also synergizes nicely with the increased Appeal near Hockey Rinks. Canadian cities should be ROLLING in tourism in the late-game, especially since there's little else to do with all those snow tiles. Even small colonies completely surrounded by snow will still be very useful when pursuing a cultural victory, as you can place a Hockey Rink and then a couple of National Parks - and the ability to buy the tiles you need at a 50% discount (which will probably stack with the policy card...) means that you can get massive tourism yields from even the smallest cities.

Laurier Unique Ability – The Last Best West
This ability allows Canada to build farms on Tundra terrain, and reduces the cost of purchasing Snow and Tundra tiles by half. Gathering accumulated resources from Snow and Tundra tiles yields twice the usual amount.

I've already talked about this a bit further up, but there are a few more advantages here. Yes, tundra cities are still not going to be as good as a comparable city placed...almost anywhere else because the starting yields are just going to be lower. But, the ability to build farms on tundra will help close the gap AND will provide additional Housing simultaneously, so Canada should be able to have some moderately sized cities without too much effort.

The doubled resource accumulation when combind with free culture and ez National Parks makes going for those remote snow resources a no brainer. You don't even need to do anything else with those cities, they'll be more than paying for themselves even at 1 population. And since they'll be in remote areas Loyalty shouldn't be a huge issue. And since they will have warning for any wars, you should be able to protect them without too much trouble.

Bottom line, Canada will be very effective at playing the diplomatic and culture game with small-to-moderately sized cities from the fringes of the map. They should focus on building up a very strong economy to pay for Mounties, Settlers, and tiles, and can continue expanding throughout the late game to grab those remote strategic resources (which can in turn be sold for more Favor and Gold, and/or spent to build up a booming infrastructure or military).

Additionally, focusing on a strong economy should make the levy-as-military strategy very doable, since you don't even need a standing army to protect you if you have enough cash on hand to levy from your city-state allies, which should be easy to do since you'll have a 5-turn lead time on (almost) any invasion.

The more I think about it, the more fun I think they will be to play. Very strong economic and diplomatic game, which is just how I like to play.

 

[seasnake]

The AI declares war on you?

Yeah, that's pretty common in the ancient/classical era, I usually have 2-3 wars before the medieval era.

 

[MrRadar]

I feel obligated to post this video:

Thank you for this! That was most educational

Judging by some of the posts in this thread, FXS might be receiving a few formal complaints re design of Canada civ shortly

And bilingual grafitis - mwhahahahahaha!