Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
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Did I not already address that? "as of right now", given the circumstances I listed, et cetera, et cetera.
Capto Iugulum
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Did I not already address that? "as of right now", given the circumstances I listed, et cetera, et cetera.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
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- 7,284
To: The Empire of Brazil
CC: The Empire of Spain, The Faithful of Brazil
From: The Holy See
Brazilian support for a rebellious regime violates the principles of sovereign respect between christian nations that has been established since the time of Thirty-years war and the treaty of Augsburg. Furthermore your response appears to be completely disproportionate to the Spanish statement itself, which at its essence is a reasonable call for dialogue and a promise that the spanish government will not summarily execute political opponents on the vein of the russian regime in past years in Poland.
As such the Holy Church opposes Brazils absurd and blatantly aggressive attempts to harm the Spanish state and promote rebellion and sedition amongst the nations of Europe. Your aggressions, in addition to being completely baseless in their claims risk an escalation of the conflict into a multi-continental war and shows Brazils government to be not only hypocritical in its states claims to be concerned with human rights, but also gravely deficient in the virtues of religion and to adhere to grave error.
The Church Excommunicates all members of the government of Brazil who support this absurd stand on behalf of the Brazilian Empire, they are to be denied participation in the sacred mysteries until such time as they recant their aggressions against a fellow Catholic nation and take measures to restore the primacy of Truth in their relations with the world.
~ The Holy See.
CC: The Empire of Spain, The Faithful of Brazil
From: The Holy See
Brazilian support for a rebellious regime violates the principles of sovereign respect between christian nations that has been established since the time of Thirty-years war and the treaty of Augsburg. Furthermore your response appears to be completely disproportionate to the Spanish statement itself, which at its essence is a reasonable call for dialogue and a promise that the spanish government will not summarily execute political opponents on the vein of the russian regime in past years in Poland.
As such the Holy Church opposes Brazils absurd and blatantly aggressive attempts to harm the Spanish state and promote rebellion and sedition amongst the nations of Europe. Your aggressions, in addition to being completely baseless in their claims risk an escalation of the conflict into a multi-continental war and shows Brazils government to be not only hypocritical in its states claims to be concerned with human rights, but also gravely deficient in the virtues of religion and to adhere to grave error.
The Church Excommunicates all members of the government of Brazil who support this absurd stand on behalf of the Brazilian Empire, they are to be denied participation in the sacred mysteries until such time as they recant their aggressions against a fellow Catholic nation and take measures to restore the primacy of Truth in their relations with the world.
~ The Holy See.
OOC: And around this time, China had roughly half a billion people. I realize history has gone differently, but the estimates for the various nations that compose China don't even come close.
I have typically used a manpower x 7500 to find populations. 7500 comes from 3000 (number of fighting-capable males in a manpower point) times 2.5 (1 fighting capable male per 2.5 people). This gives me a population of roughly 16 million (15 975 000 to be precise). That is fairly close to the 14.5 million I estimated in the Vinland Fact Sheet- the close agreement of these numbers is very pleasing to me. It's possible that Vinland's higher manpower is due to a younger population, perhaps. At any rate, OTL Canada's population at this time was a little under 10 million- I'd attribute the higher population of Vinland to increased migration throughout the 1800s, particularly in the years after the War of the American Presidency.
I have typically used a manpower x 7500 to find populations. 7500 comes from 3000 (number of fighting-capable males in a manpower point) times 2.5 (1 fighting capable male per 2.5 people). This gives me a population of roughly 16 million (15 975 000 to be precise). That is fairly close to the 14.5 million I estimated in the Vinland Fact Sheet- the close agreement of these numbers is very pleasing to me. It's possible that Vinland's higher manpower is due to a younger population, perhaps. At any rate, OTL Canada's population at this time was a little under 10 million- I'd attribute the higher population of Vinland to increased migration throughout the 1800s, particularly in the years after the War of the American Presidency.
ZeletDude
The Lion
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2009
- Messages
- 5,490
No.
Sweden's population in 1923 - 6 Million
Norway's Population in 1923 - 2.7
Finland's in 1917(closest to others I could find) - 3 million
6+2.7+3 = 11.7 is not 18
@Iggy -
Doesn't count Japan's portion, which is the majority of China's population, regardless I'm following what EQ said a while back regarding the formula
so not my formula lolTo: The Holy See
From: Vinland
We seem to have different views on the use of words once again. If a man boasts at having slaughtered someone's people, promises to annihilate them, and implicitly states that large scale executions will take place, these do not sound like the words of a man making a reasonable call for dialogue.
EDIT@ZeletDude: I was counting Japan's proportion. I suppose one way to interpret things is that there are a lot of Chinese people who are simply not in the available manpower pool.
From: Vinland
We seem to have different views on the use of words once again. If a man boasts at having slaughtered someone's people, promises to annihilate them, and implicitly states that large scale executions will take place, these do not sound like the words of a man making a reasonable call for dialogue.
EDIT@ZeletDude: I was counting Japan's proportion. I suppose one way to interpret things is that there are a lot of Chinese people who are simply not in the available manpower pool.
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
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as of right now meaning right now, the present, September 10th of 2012. Though those statistics are impressive.
ZeletDude
The Lion
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- Aug 16, 2009
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Then why compare 2012 to 1918
ridiculous. Obviously statistics from the 1920s are of more validity.
OOC: Please, like you've never heard of posturing. You're all taking this "human rights" thing a bit too far. Also, though gratuitous can fit there, I should have used gracious. It doesn't matter, as I don't expect to change your mind and 95% of everything I say is just propaganda.
Also, though gratuitous can fit there, I should have used gracious. It doesn't matter, as I don't expect to change your mind and 95% of everything I say is just propaganda.
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
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Then why compare 2012 to 1918
Neither set of statistics are particularly enlightening because the history, economic and political circumstance, and composition of the Workers Commonwealth in 1918 is very different from the reality of the Sweden, Norway and Finland of our own time.
I'm not certain what you gain by belaboring the point.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
TO: The Holy See
FROM: Brazil
There is nothing more absurd than the stance the Holy See has taken in this matter. The church has always taught to protect the flock, not destroy it, and Brazil is the shepherd of those in need of assistance. We protect the rights of man, as all Christians should, not for glory, but for the good of all mankind. The Spanish Emperor has taken away all that the Spanish government worked towards by usurping power from his subjects and unto himself. We are not the barbaric kings of the middle ages. We will not allow this world to move backward, but forward, ever forward.
Quisani
Gaming Person
OOC: So is this a roundabout way of declaring war on Italy?
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
OOC: Nope.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
To Brazil
From the Holy See
The Holy Church is concerned primarily with the salvation of souls with the temporal wellbeing of the faithful being secondary to that primary concern. The primary end of the Church's existence takes primacy over temporal concerns, although the Church always does its utmost to ensure that both ends are achieved.
In the matter of Brazilian intervention in the Spanish Question, Brazil has in its public statements at least not only distorted Imperial public statements to serve its own ends, but it has also threatened an escalation of the conflict. Furthermore in its support for the republican cause, it would perpetuate the spanish civil war on the ideological side of a group that holds positions that are gravely erroneous, and contrary to the Catholic religion.
As such, as its support threatens the escalation of the war, and would perpetuate the war the Church must oppose Brazil in the interests of the minimisation of violence in Spain and the temporal good of the spanish people in line with its secondary end of ensuring wellbeing of the faithful on earth. In addition to this the Church must oppose Brazils support of the republican cause as insodoing it supports a group who's positions attack the fundamental doctrines of the faith, and are perilous to the souls of the faithful. The Church as such in its primary interest of saving souls is obliged to oppose support for the republicans.
Finally, as we have said, Brazil is acting incogruously in deliberately distorting imperial statements to serve its own interests and violating the principles of sovereignty. This combined with the support for an anti-Catholic force, the obvious aggression implicit in Brazilian statements and the aforementioned factors involved in this issue leads the Holy See to conclude that the Brazilian government has become corrupted with erroneous ideology contrary to the Catholic Faith that merits the excommunication we have placed upon it.
The Holy See is concerned about potential Imperial actions of retribution against its opponents and would urge it to act in christian charity and mercy in regards to restoring its legitimate authority over the rebel forces. But Brazils actions are directly contrary to the divine religion and thus merit our public opposition.
We as such urge the Brazilian state to recant its error and desist from intervetion in European affairs.
~ Pope Paul VI.
From the Holy See
The Holy Church is concerned primarily with the salvation of souls with the temporal wellbeing of the faithful being secondary to that primary concern. The primary end of the Church's existence takes primacy over temporal concerns, although the Church always does its utmost to ensure that both ends are achieved.
In the matter of Brazilian intervention in the Spanish Question, Brazil has in its public statements at least not only distorted Imperial public statements to serve its own ends, but it has also threatened an escalation of the conflict. Furthermore in its support for the republican cause, it would perpetuate the spanish civil war on the ideological side of a group that holds positions that are gravely erroneous, and contrary to the Catholic religion.
As such, as its support threatens the escalation of the war, and would perpetuate the war the Church must oppose Brazil in the interests of the minimisation of violence in Spain and the temporal good of the spanish people in line with its secondary end of ensuring wellbeing of the faithful on earth. In addition to this the Church must oppose Brazils support of the republican cause as insodoing it supports a group who's positions attack the fundamental doctrines of the faith, and are perilous to the souls of the faithful. The Church as such in its primary interest of saving souls is obliged to oppose support for the republicans.
Finally, as we have said, Brazil is acting incogruously in deliberately distorting imperial statements to serve its own interests and violating the principles of sovereignty. This combined with the support for an anti-Catholic force, the obvious aggression implicit in Brazilian statements and the aforementioned factors involved in this issue leads the Holy See to conclude that the Brazilian government has become corrupted with erroneous ideology contrary to the Catholic Faith that merits the excommunication we have placed upon it.
The Holy See is concerned about potential Imperial actions of retribution against its opponents and would urge it to act in christian charity and mercy in regards to restoring its legitimate authority over the rebel forces. But Brazils actions are directly contrary to the divine religion and thus merit our public opposition.
We as such urge the Brazilian state to recant its error and desist from intervetion in European affairs.
~ Pope Paul VI.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
TO: The Holy See
FROM: Brazil
If the Church sees the pursuit of liberty as an attack on the fundamental doctrines of faith, then there is no need for a Brazilian embassy in Rome. The papacy is not incorruptible, and with time we know a truly faithful pope will take your place. Until then, however, consider our diplomatic mission to the Holy See defunct and closed.
FROM: Brazil
If the Church sees the pursuit of liberty as an attack on the fundamental doctrines of faith, then there is no need for a Brazilian embassy in Rome. The papacy is not incorruptible, and with time we know a truly faithful pope will take your place. Until then, however, consider our diplomatic mission to the Holy See defunct and closed.
To: Pope Paul VI
CC: The World
From: Italy
Italy would like to announce once again to the world that we are indeed a catholic state and will remain so long into the future. We would also like to invite the Pope himself to Italy and, if he would so desire, to Libya to help spread the word of god and convert those across the Mediterranean.
CC: The World
From: Italy
Italy would like to announce once again to the world that we are indeed a catholic state and will remain so long into the future. We would also like to invite the Pope himself to Italy and, if he would so desire, to Libya to help spread the word of god and convert those across the Mediterranean.
Italy would like to remind everyone concerned with the Spanish civil war that Italy has declared previously that we will not be involved, unless we are attacked by either side, and we have sent ships to insure no outside forces get involved. If we are attacked or anyone gets involved we will get involved by considering it a declaration of war upon Italy.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
To Brazil
CC: The World
From The Holy See
-
Brazils deliberate ad-hominem attacks on the Church and misconstruction and strawmanning of its opposition to its Spanish policy as an attack on liberty is another example of Brazils disingenous and hypocritical conduct, which sees the truth as relative to its political goals. The Church has already explained why it opposes Brazils spanish policy, and it grieves us to see that Brazil ignores and takes license with what we have genuinely said in a vain bid to justify its own erroneous position.
The Church prays to the Lord God that the government of Brazil may return to a dialogue of truth with opposition to its policies, and dispense with the gravely flawed and erroneous conceptions and return to the Catholic fold in its mentality and its policies.
~ Pope Paul VI.
To Italy
From: The Holy See
The Holy Father accepts Italy's invitation to engage in a state visit and expresses his gratitude that Italy remains despite all that has come to pass, faithful to the true religion.
~ Pope Paul VI.
CC: The World
From The Holy See
-
Brazils deliberate ad-hominem attacks on the Church and misconstruction and strawmanning of its opposition to its Spanish policy as an attack on liberty is another example of Brazils disingenous and hypocritical conduct, which sees the truth as relative to its political goals. The Church has already explained why it opposes Brazils spanish policy, and it grieves us to see that Brazil ignores and takes license with what we have genuinely said in a vain bid to justify its own erroneous position.
The Church prays to the Lord God that the government of Brazil may return to a dialogue of truth with opposition to its policies, and dispense with the gravely flawed and erroneous conceptions and return to the Catholic fold in its mentality and its policies.
~ Pope Paul VI.
To Italy
From: The Holy See
The Holy Father accepts Italy's invitation to engage in a state visit and expresses his gratitude that Italy remains despite all that has come to pass, faithful to the true religion.
~ Pope Paul VI.
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 401
We will stand with our allies if they are attacked and we will fight for them till the bitter end.
On one hand we have a government that did not remain with the secretary of state/interim President, and which rules itself through military democracy (we are not saying either is wrong, just stating history). On the other we have a state that has attacked two other states, plans to annex three Republics, and forced Proletarists to defend themselves with gas warfare.
Actually, we must apologize for having missed your actual response to our diplomacy, we'll read how Wallace responded in return when we have time and give our opinion, but ultimately we must hear Japan's opinion before finalizing ours.
The Pacific Accord backs a personality cult with about as much legitimacy as an atheist pope.
Peru should remove itself from this internal affair, as should the remainder of the Pacific Accord. The western portion of the United States is federal territory currently under the occupation of a madman, and by the Grace of God he will be defeated and his fiefdom extinguished.
The United States is open to discussion on achieving Pacific Accord neutrality in our internal affairs, but we will not countenance the continued existence of the Denver government.
-Secretary of War, Rudolph Kranz
